Ephesians 2:1-10. What Does Paul Say?

[SavedByGrace]

Respectfully, I'm not "Reformed" and I never was exposed to anything even remotely like it growing up in IFB churches.
I was simply reading the Bible one day for myself, and a number of passages began to "make a dent" in my understanding.

As for salvation being unconditional, that is precisely what it does teach...
In fact, you said so yourself ( and agreed with it ), right here:

Have you changed your mind, or did you not really mean what you said there?

Our "good works" CANNOT save us. But, the Bible requires the sinner to DO, that is REPENT and BELIEVE!

 

[SavedByGrace]

A quick perusal of Romans 5 argues otherwise.

the whole chapter? what is your point here?

 

[Dave G]

Our "good works" CANNOT save us. But, the Bible requires the sinner to DO, that is REPENT and BELIEVE!

I agree.
God's word tells us that we must repent and believe.

But those are good works, and it seems that you've just told us that by the efforts of repenting and believing, that is what God requires and that is what He rewards the person who successfully performs those works, with salvation.

Would you clarify, please?
Do you believe that God's efforts plus our efforts save us, or is it God's efforts alone that save us?

 

[SavedByGrace]

I agree.
God's word tells us that we must repent and believe.

But those are good works

You are CONFUSED!!! You say that God's Word tells us to repent and believe, which you agree with. And YOU say that these are "good works". Well if they are, and you still agree with what God says, then your fault is with Him and not me! I do NOT believe that either repentance or faith are "good works", but the sinner agreeing with the Just Command of a Just God!

Look at Jonah, 3

5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.

6 For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.

7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:

8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.

9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?

10 And God saw their WORKS, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

You see the word "WORKS" here, not of "merit", but in obeying what God wanted them to do, "that they turned from their evil way". Do you get this?

 

[Tsalagi]

the whole chapter? what is your point here?

Sorry, I thought you would recognize the direct and pertinent reference in Romans 5:12-21 to the significance of Adam's sin, God's call, and Adam's response in Genesis 3. Adam is the first sinner in need of salvation, and God's approach to the first spiritually dead people in history seems worth studying in terms of understanding how God's grace and human response are related.

 

[Dave G]

You are CONFUSED!!!

I'm confused?
I'm only asking you to clarify why it is that your mixing man's efforts in with God's grace and you seem unable to tell the difference.
Please allow me to draw it out for you again, since you apparently missed it:

Either our own efforts result in us being saved, or they have nothing to do with it.
You said in your first post, that they did not...
Now you're saying that they do.

All I'm asking for is clarification...
If someone meets God's requirements of repenting and believing in order to gain their salvation, then to me that is clearly based on merit:

" good deeds regarded as entitling someone to a future reward from God."
"Deserving of a reward."
" The act of meeting a requirement so as to warrant what is being promised."
" character or conduct deserving reward, honor, or esteem."
" spiritual credit held to be earned by performance of righteous acts and to ensure future benefit."

Do you believe in that God's gift of eternal life can be merited, yes, or no?

You see the word "WORKS" here, not of "merit", but in obeying what God wanted them to do, "that they turned from their evil way". Do you get this?

Please believe me when I say that I do indeed "get it".
Obedience to God's commands merits ( results in God granting ) our salvation...that is precisely what you are telling me.

 

[AustinC]

Can you please stop using this thread for your arguments on things other than the OP

Both my question regarding Adam and regarding Lazarus are relevant to Ephesians 2:1-10.

We were dead in our trespasses and sins...
But God...
Made us alive with Christ...

Did God call our name and we respond, or did we call God's name and He responded to us?

Ephesians 2:1-10 shows you the pattern God has used since Adam sinned. Do you not see the relevance and connection?

 

[SavedByGrace]

I'm only asking you to clarify why it is that your mixing man's efforts in with God's grace and you seem unable to tell the difference.

There is the requirement of "obedience", when the sinner accepts God's Just Demand to "repent and believe". Let us not forget Luke 13:24, here, where God Incarnate does say, "make every EFFORT", as the Greek has it! There, if you still disagree, then I suggest asking the Holy Spirit, after all, Luke 13:24, and the rest of the Bible, is HIS Word, and not mine!

 

[SavedByGrace]

Both my question regarding Adam and regarding Lazarus are relevant to Ephesians 2:1-10.

We were dead in our trespasses and sins...
But God...
Made us alive with Christ...

Did God call our name and we respond, or did we call God's name and He responded to us?

Ephesians 2:1-10 shows you the pattern God has used since Adam sinned. Do you not see the relevance and connection?

Adam was not "born-again", nor was "Lazarus"!

 

[Dave G]

There is the requirement of "obedience", when the sinner accepts God's Just Demand to "repent and believe". Let us not forget Luke 13:24, here, where God Incarnate does say, "make every EFFORT", as the Greek has it! There, if you still disagree, then I suggest asking the Holy Spirit, after all, Luke 13:24, and the rest of the Bible, is HIS Word, and not mine!

Again, please believe me that I'm standing back and looking at what you're saying, and wondering why you don't see merit for what it really is...
Conduct or actions that are worthy of reward.

I was in the U.S. military for over 10 years...
I know what merit is.

By contrast, salvation from God's wrath and the gift of eternal life cannot be merited...
It's all by grace.

Please see Romans 4:4 and Romans 11:5-6 as well as Ephesians 2:8-9.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Again, please believe me that I'm standing back and looking at what you're saying, and wondering why you don't see merit for what it really is.

Salvation cannot be merited...
It's by grace.

Please see Romans 4:4 and Romans 11:5-6.

I am sorry, but I get this impression, that you cannot grasp what I have said, and that you are assuming that I say things that I NEVER do. I NEVER BELIEVE THAT A SINNER CAN MERIT THEIR SALVATION. If you still cannot grasp this, I can give it to your in either, Hebrew, Greek, or Latin!!!

 

[Tsalagi]

Adam was not "born-again", nor was "Lazarus"!

Adam wasn't saved - how do you figure? "In the day thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die." "Whereas by one man sin entered the world, and death by sin, so that death passed upon all men, for all have sinned." For your claim to be true either Adam never spiritually died "in the day he ate thereof," or he was never eternally saved after his sin (spiritual life, "born again"). Help me out here, I truly do not understand what you're saying about Adam.

 

[Dave G]

I am sorry, but I get this impressions, that you cannot grasp what I have said, and that you are assuming that I say things that I NEVER do.

I think I'm grasping it just fine, SBG.

In your first post you said it was not by our efforts...
Now you're saying that we must meet requirements to be saved.

But don't ask me...
Take a poll of the readers here and ask them if what I'm saying constitutes merit, based on the dictionary definition of the word.
I think that you'll find, if the question is objective enough, that the definition stands.

I NEVER BELIEVE THAT A SINNER CAN MERIT THEIR SALVATION.

You don't?
Then why not phrase the things that God says as having to be present in the life of someone who is saved, as "evidential necessities" instead?

Can you not see how easy it is to confuse someone who is paying attention to the details, sir?

 

[SavedByGrace]

Adam wasn't saved - how do you figure? "In the day thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die." "Whereas by one man sin entered the world, and death by sin, so that death passed upon all men, for all have sinned." For your claim to be true either Adam never spiritually died "in the day he ate thereof," or he was never eternally saved after his sin (spiritual life, "born again"). Help me out here, I truly do not understand what you're saying about Adam.

after the "fall" of Adam and Eve, there is no Biblical data to say that they were ever "born-again". That is my point.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I think I'm grasping it just fine, sir.

In your first post you said it was not by our efforts...
Now you're saying that it is.

But don't ask me, take a poll of the readers here and ask them if what I'm saying constitutes merit, based on the dictionary definition of the word.
I think you'll find, if the question is objective enough, that the definition stands.

You don't?
Then why not phrase the things that God says have to be present in the life of someone who is saved as "evidential necessities"?

Can you not see how easy it is to confuse someone who is paying attention to the details, sir?

WHERE did I EVER say, directly or indirectly, that I believe MERIT salvation? You are dreaming things!

 

[Tsalagi]

after the "fall" of Adam and Eve, there is no Biblical data to say that they were ever "born-again". That is my point.

God made them clothing of skins, a sacrificial covering of their nakedness (lack of righteousness) through death, foreshadowing the work of Christ on the cross as levitical sacrifices would later do. Sorry, I'm still confused by your position. Do you believe Adam and Eve are headed to the lake of fire or not? Do you think someone can possess eternal life without being born again?

 

[Dave G]

WHERE did I EVER say, directly or indirectly, that I believe MERIT salvation? You are dreaming things!

We can run through it again if you wish.
This will be my final attempt to get through to you, sir.

You said below:

All Paul is doing, is showing the sinner who has been “saved”, that this was not because of any human “efforts”, where we, by our “good works”, can some how “appease” God of His Just wrath against us, and thereby save us by what “good”, that we have done. Our salvation is not because of what “we have done”, but based on the Great Mercy, Love, and Forgiveness of our Great God.

Then you said below:

for those "reformed" who have this unbiblical view, that the sinner does nothing for their salvation. And that God has first to "enable" them to then call on Him. I answer from one Scripture passage from the Lord's own words:

"Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able" Luke 13:24

Literally, "make every effort", etc. WHO is this addressed to? God? or to the sinful human race? WHY would the Lord ask the sinner to MAKE EVERY EFFORT to enter heaven, if it has all already been done for them? Reformed Soteriology is NOT what the Bible actually teaches, but a grave error from the devil!

and here:

AFTER a sinner repents and believes, only then, they are indeed made alive by the Holy Spirit.

Right here you are making the process of the new birth dependent upon our own efforts, SBG, by saying that it's only after the sinner does these things, that they are born again.
You honestly do not see what you yourself have written?

 

[SavedByGrace]

God made them clothing of skins, a sacrificial covering of their nakedness (lack of righteousness) through death, foreshadowing the work of Christ on the cross as levitical sacrifices would later do. Sorry, I'm still confused by your position. Do you believe Adam and Eve are headed to the lake of fire or not? Do you think someone can possess eternal life without being born again?

I don't believe in speculative theology. the Bible tells us that God created Adam and Eve perfect, they disobeyed God, which means they had a "free will", and thereby transgressed against God, and "fell" from His Grace. Unless I have missed this, there is not verse in the Bible that says that they were ever "restored" to the Lord, and "born again".

 

[SavedByGrace]

We can run through it again if you wish.
But I think I'll just summarize it and then ask you if that is what you believe...

You said below:


Then you said below:

and here:


Right here you are making the process of the new birth dependent upon our own efforts, SBG, by saying that it's only after the sinner does these things, that they are saved.
You honestly do not see that?

In # 83, you wrote

I agree.
God's word tells us that we must repent and believe.

Then if God's Word tells us that "must repent and believe.", then WHAT is your problem here? If you disagree, then take it up with the Lord. "repent and believe.", is NOT a "merit work"

 

[Dave G]

Then if God's Word tells us that "must repent and believe.", then WHAT is your problem here?

My problem is, is that you're making salvation dependent upon the efforts of both repenting and believing,
instead of it being wholly of God by His grace and mercy, and those things being a product of His work in us through the new birth.

There is no merit involved if He grants us the desire and power to repent by changing our hearts first, SBG.

"repent and believe.", is NOT a "merit work"

It is, if it's placed before the new birth, which the Lord clearly states is not a product of our own will in John 1:13, and specifically states that we were "begotten" of His own will with the word of truth in James 1:18.
Being dead in trespasses and sins is the complete opposite of being made alive in Christ...
it's that being "dead" that He rescues us from.

Again, if something that we do for God results in our being made alive, then that is merit.
If something that He does results in our being born again, then that is grace, my friend.


Good evening to you, sir.