Faith

[37818]

The Bible and what it says.
Good evening to you, sir.

There are many things the Bible says. What is the specific that is being disagreed upon?

 

[37818]

37818, you have required a prerequisite that God does not require. You teach a doctrine of merited salvation not salvation by grace alone.

John 3:17-18, ". . . For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. . . ."
Stop with your false accusations and with your denial.

 

[AustinC]

John 3:17-18, ". . . For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. . . ."
Stop with your false accusations and with your denial.

Again, this does not support your assertion that "faith is a prerequisite to salvation."

37818, can a person who is dead in their trespasses and sins believe...before they are made alive?
It seems that you are saying...yes, a person, as a prerequisite, must believe, though they are spiritually dead, before God can actually save that person. God is incapacitated by a dead man who must somehow believe before God can act.
Do you see how silly your view actually is?

Dead person's cannot believe until they are made alive. It is true physically as well as spiritually. Therefore, God must graciously save and graciously give faith so that the one whom God has made alive will believe that what God has done is actually true.

The verses you quote are all applicable to the one God has made alive, not to the one who is dead in sin.

 

[37818]

37818, can a person who is dead in their trespasses and sins believe...before they are made alive?

That presupposition, that the spiritually dead cannot believe it a total falsehood. Faith precedes one's regeneration. As per Ephesians 2:1-8, ". . . through faith . . . ." "that not of yourselves . . . ." Truth if heard can cause faith, (John 17:17) Romans 10:17-18 refers to natural revelation of God's creation, Psalms 19:1-4. There is BTW no knowledge of any kind without faith.

 

[Dave G]

There are many things the Bible says. What is the specific that is being disagreed upon?

There are many specifics,
most of which have been covered in threads like this on many forums, and for years on this very forum.
I've only been here for less than three, and I've already gotten a very good picture of the situation;

But what surprises me more, is that you're asking questions that you have already seen both sides of, given that you're involved and have been reading these threads for at least as long as I've been here.

All one has to do is pay careful attention to what is being stated by both George and I on this very subject...
Or AustinC and SavedByGrace, for example.
Add RevMitchell and Martin Marprelate in as another example, and I hope that you see where this is going.

The matter of faith in Jesus Christ.
Undying trust in God and His promises...

Faith that is the result of God's working in the objects of His grace and mercy,
and not God's grace and mercy being the result of what we do or do not do towards Him.


That is what I and many others see the Scriptures teaching,
While still others ( and there are many more of them than there are of us ) are on the complete opposite end of that belief.

 

[Dave G]

That presupposition, that the spiritually dead cannot believe it a total falsehood. Faith precedes one's regeneration. As per Ephesians 2:1-8, ". . . through faith . . . ." "that not of yourselves . . . ." Truth if heard can cause faith, (John 17:17) Romans 10:17-18 refers to natural revelation of God's creation, Psalms 19:1-4. There is BTW no knowledge of any kind without faith.

The above, highlighted and underlined, is what I'm referencing...

What some call "saving faith" ( or "the faith that saves" ) that we as men "exercise" in order to get God to save us,
versus evidential faith ( Hebrews 11:1 ) and belief that we as desperate sinners are given as a gift ( Ephesians 2:8, Hebrews 12:2 and several others ) as a result of God opening our eyes to the truth ( 1 Peter 2:9 ), changing our hearts ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ) and graciously bringing us into an eternal relationship with Him ( John 10:26-29, John 17:2-3 ) because it was given to us, in the behalf of Christ, to believe on Him ( Philippians 1:29 ).

In other words,
Where it comes from, why some have it and why others do not ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ).
Why some believe on Christ, while others reject Him and His words.

The Scriptures actually answer those things,
yet those very answers are continually disagreed upon by those who profess Christ.
The sad thing, from my perspective, is that it amazes me that any two people can read the Bible and come to any sort of agreement on any three things that are contained in it, especially these days.

For the record, there is only one Lord, one faith, and one baptism ( Ephesians 4:5 );
One truth and one set of truths, one version of sound doctrine and a host of many false ones...
Yet, everyone has a differing opinion of what that consists of and what it really is, exactly.


That said, I wish you well, sir, and I take my leave of this thread.


May the Lord bless you in many ways.

 

[37818]

There are many specifics,
most of which have been covered in threads like this on many forums, and for years on this very forum.
I've only been here for less than three, and I've already gotten a very good picture of the situation;

But what surprises me more, is that you're asking questions that you have already seen both sides of, given that you're involved and have been reading these threads for at least as long as I've been here.

All one has to do is pay careful attention to what is being stated by both George and I on this very subject...
Or AustinC and SavedByGrace, for example.
Add RevMitchell and Martin Marprelate in as another example, and I hope that you see where this is going.

The matter of faith.

There are indeed a spectrum of points of disagreement. But each issue must be dealt with individualally.

The issue of believing the gospel versus believing anything else. There is real phenomenon there.
2 Corinthians 4:3-4, ". . . But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. . . ."

Then there is, Luke 8:13, ". . . They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. . . ." What was not yet believed that they had no root?

Belief in the gospel is indeed a miracle, Romans 1:16, ". . . For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . ."

But the notion that this salvation precedes the faith is without Biblical foundation.

 

[AustinC]

That presupposition, that the spiritually dead cannot believe it a total falsehood. Faith precedes one's regeneration. As per Ephesians 2:1-8, ". . . through faith . . . ." "that not of yourselves . . . ." Truth if heard can cause faith, (John 17:17) Romans 10:17-18 refers to natural revelation of God's creation, Psalms 19:1-4. There is BTW no knowledge of any kind without faith.

Your first sentence is false, therefore the following sentences are false.
Faith does not precede regeneration. Since Jesus is the author of faith, Jesus does not author faith to the unregenerate person, the person who is spiritually dead.
In Ephesians 2:1-9 we see the great conjunction..."But" in verse 4. "But God...even when we were dead...made us alive...by grace you are saved."
Notice...no prerequisite. Notice that faith does not precede regeneration. "Even when we were dead, (God) made us alive together with Christ."
Salvation is entirely a work of grace by God, with no prerequisites. What you teach is a bold face lie and the verses you use as prooftext do not support your assertion because your premise is false.

 

[37818]

. . .
In other words,
Where it comes from, why some have it and why others do not ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ).
. . .

There is faith and there is "the faith," Jude 1:3
2 Thessalonians 3:2, MLT, ". . . and in-order-that we may be rescued from the improper and evil men; for* the faith is not of all. . . ."

 

[37818]

Faith does not precede regeneration.

We are done. You deny Ephesians 2:8 in regards to Ephesians 2:4.

 

[37818]

The notion that regeneration precedes the faith is for me totally untenable. Sorry, do not even bother to explain that notion.

Faith precedes salvation. There are no Biblical exceptions.
Acts of the Apostles 16:31, ". . . Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, . . ." future tense. Believe is in a past tense.

 

[AustinC]

We are done. You deny Ephesians 2:8 in regards to Ephesians 2:4.

I show you exactly what Ephesians 2:8 is saying as it is found within Ephesians 2:1-10.
YOU refuse to accept what God tells us through Paul. I walked you through it, step by step, and it is YOU who denies the statement in the passage.

We are done since you refuse to accept what God has clearly told you. You, instead, manufacture a lie about salvation where you force a prerequisite on the damned before God can save them. You attempt to bind God under your prerequisite. What you are doing is anathema.

 

[37818]

We are done. You deny Ephesians 2:8 in regards to Ephesians 2:4.

To "deny Ephesians 2:8 in regards to Ephesians 2:5." 2:4 was a typo.

Ephesians 2:5, ". . . Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved . . ."
Ephesians 2:8, ". . . For by grace are ye saved through faith; . . . "

 

[AustinC]

To "deny Ephesians 2:8 in regards to Ephesians 2:5." 2:4 was a typo.

Ephesians 2:5, ". . . Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved . . ."
Ephesians 2:8, ". . . For by grace are ye saved through faith; . . . "

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
~ Ephesians 2:4-9

The text is clear. No prerequisites required.

 

[ivdavid]

Sure it does. You have made faith a prerequisite to salvation. That means it's a prerequisite to grace. That removes grace and replaces it with a man created faith that is the cause which moves God to save a person.

If you want "saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone" then you cannot require a prerequisite. You must allow God to save by grace alone, through the gift of faith, which comes after grace, alone that places the one God chose to save in Christ alone.

No prerequisites required before God graciously saves. No prerequisites.

I do not agree with most points posed by those debating against you here - I am a firm believer of regeneration preceding faith - and yet I do find valid questions being raised that we do need to respond to convincingly in order to persuade. If I'm being fair, I would have to acknowledge there are complexities and nuances in Scriptures that are larger than any one camp's doctrinal system.

Most nuances are found in language - was the dying man saved by the good samaritan's compassion (Luke 10:33) or by the ministering of wounds and payment to the innkeeper for care (Luke 10:34-35)? Could one say that ministering of the wounds was a prerequisite for saving the man even though it followed the samaritan's compassion?

The term Law as used in Paul's epistles refers to a principle like the Law of Gravity etc. Something along the lines of an IF..THEN...If an object is dropped, Then it falls at gravitational acceleration whatever (never great at science, lol). So Paul sees (Rom 10:5, Gal 3:12) the Law of works in Lev 18:5 - IF you do God's commandments, THEN you will live by doing so. Deut 27:26 provides the inverse for Paul (Gal 3:10) - IF you don't do God's commandments, THEN you are cursed. I think there's merit in seeing a Law of faith similarly (Rom 3:27) - IF you believe, THEN you are saved (Rom 10:11, 13) and IF you do not believe, THEN you will die (Luke 8:24). Again, note, this does not prove faith is the cause of the effect - it simply could be an instrumental evidential means that necessarily accompanies salvation.

Also, "saved" is a dynamic term - one who is saved by God can still be destroyed later (Jud 1:5) and one who believes for a while could stop and fall away (Luke 8:13). Granted, this puts a spoke in the calvinist system but these Scriptures are saying what they're saying right?

As long as we don't get overly defensive and are able to engage all difficult points, I'd think reconciliation is always possible within various differing perspectives/interpretations.

 

[Brightfame52]

The notion that regeneration precedes the faith is for me totally untenable. Sorry, do not even bother to explain that notion.

Faith precedes salvation. There are no Biblical exceptions.
Acts of the Apostles 16:31, ". . . Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, . . ." future tense. Believe is in a past tense.

Acts 16:31 doesnt say Faith precedes salvation !

 

[ivdavid]

The notion that regeneration precedes the faith is for me totally untenable. Sorry, do not even bother to explain that notion.

Faith precedes salvation. There are no Biblical exceptions.

Why is it totally untenable? And I'd appeal not to close the doors on arguments especially on a debate forum - that's how dogma sets in without scope for reconciliation, right?

Anyhow, is it untenable because there's an incorrect assumption that regeneration = salvation ? What if I were to posit that they're quite distinct concepts - would you then be satisfied with regeneration preceding faith which in turn precedes salvation ?

Of course, there's a whole lot of nuance - from Jude 1:5, I infer there is a being saved from slavery to sin (egypt) and a being saved to the kingdom of God (promised land). The former does not necessarily always imply the latter, though they may go through baptism and communion like us (1 Cor 10:1-5).

I'd equate regeneration with the replacing the hardened heart with a new heart (1Sam 10:9) and enlightening them with the knowledge of truth initially (Heb 6:4, 10:26) which by no means guarantee their final salvation which is contingent upon the faith that endures (Heb 3:14). If this is acceptable, fair and tenable to you, then I could proceed with the assurance of salvation provided to the elect that builds further on this without negating any of what's presented so far.

 

[37818]

Acts 16:31 doesnt say Faith precedes salvation !

Belief was in a past tense and "shall be saved" was in a future tense. ". . . πιστευσον επι τον κυριον ιησουν χριστον και σωθηση . . . ."

 

[37818]

Why is it totally untenable? And I'd appeal not to close the doors on arguments especially on a debate forum - that's how dogma sets in without scope for reconciliation, right?

Anyhow, is it untenable because there's an incorrect assumption that regeneration = salvation ? What if I were to posit that they're quite distinct concepts - would you then be satisfied with regeneration preceding faith which in turn precedes salvation ?

Of course, there's a whole lot of nuance - from Jude 1:5, I infer there is a being saved from slavery to sin (egypt) and a being saved to the kingdom of God (promised land). The former does not necessarily always imply the latter, though they may go through baptism and communion like us (1 Cor 10:1-5).

I'd equate regeneration with the replacing the hardened heart with a new heart (1Sam 10:9) and enlightening them with the knowledge of truth initially (Heb 6:4, 10:26) which by no means guarantee their final salvation which is contingent upon the faith that endures (Heb 3:14). If this is acceptable, fair and tenable to you, then I could proceed with the assurance of salvation provided to the elect that builds further on this without negating any of what's presented so far.

God first sanctifies to save (1 Peter 1:2, 2 Thessalonians 2:13), to those who do not resist (Acts of the Apostles 7:51, Hebrews 10:29) God gives repentance in order for one to believe (2 Timothy 2:25). There are no scriptures that teach regeneration prior to faith. Of course faith continues after regeneration, 1 John 5:1. Salvation is what God does following faith, John 1:12-13.

 

[Brightfame52]

Belief was in a past tense and "shall be saved" was in a future tense. ". . . πιστευσον επι τον κυριον ιησουν χριστον και σωθηση . . . ."

You just force a scripture to say what you want it to say dont you ?