Faith

[AustinC]

I do not agree with most points posed by those debating against you here - I am a firm believer of regeneration preceding faith - and yet I do find valid questions being raised that we do need to respond to convincingly in order to persuade. If I'm being fair, I would have to acknowledge there are complexities and nuances in Scriptures that are larger than any one camp's doctrinal system.

Most nuances are found in language - was the dying man saved by the good samaritan's compassion (Luke 10:33) or by the ministering of wounds and payment to the innkeeper for care (Luke 10:34-35)? Could one say that ministering of the wounds was a prerequisite for saving the man even though it followed the samaritan's compassion?

The term Law as used in Paul's epistles refers to a principle like the Law of Gravity etc. Something along the lines of an IF..THEN...If an object is dropped, Then it falls at gravitational acceleration whatever (never great at science, lol). So Paul sees (Rom 10:5, Gal 3:12) the Law of works in Lev 18:5 - IF you do God's commandments, THEN you will live by doing so. Deut 27:26 provides the inverse for Paul (Gal 3:10) - IF you don't do God's commandments, THEN you are cursed. I think there's merit in seeing a Law of faith similarly (Rom 3:27) - IF you believe, THEN you are saved (Rom 10:11, 13) and IF you do not believe, THEN you will die (Luke 8:24). Again, note, this does not prove faith is the cause of the effect - it simply could be an instrumental evidential means that necessarily accompanies salvation.

Also, "saved" is a dynamic term - one who is saved by God can still be destroyed later (Jud 1:5) and one who believes for a while could stop and fall away (Luke 8:13). Granted, this puts a spoke in the calvinist system but these Scriptures are saying what they're saying right?

As long as we don't get overly defensive and are able to engage all difficult points, I'd think reconciliation is always possible within various differing perspectives/interpretations.

Faith and Election are tied together. When a person is redeemed on earth it is because God the Father had elected them before the foundation of the world. God the Father has a gift of faith prepared for His elect upon the time when He makes them alive with Christ.
Jesus expresses this wonderfully with his intercessional prayer.

John 17:1-26
When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself,that they also may be sanctified in truth. “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”

 

[37818]

You just force a scripture to say what you want it to say dont you ?

Not at all, ". . . Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, . . ." Is what the text translates. ". . . πιστευσον επι τον κυριον ιησουν χριστον και σωθηση . . . ."

 

[Reformed1689]

Is salvation of God, or is it of man, or is it of God and man? That's the main question here.

 

[37818]

Why is it totally untenable? And I'd appeal not to close the doors on arguments especially on a debate forum - that's how dogma sets in without scope for reconciliation, right?

Anyhow, is it untenable because there's an incorrect assumption that regeneration = salvation ? What if I were to posit that they're quite distinct concepts - would you then be satisfied with regeneration preceding faith which in turn precedes salvation ?

Of course, there's a whole lot of nuance - from Jude 1:5, I infer there is a being saved from slavery to sin (egypt) and a being saved to the kingdom of God (promised land). The former does not necessarily always imply the latter, though they may go through baptism and communion like us (1 Cor 10:1-5).

I'd equate regeneration with the replacing the hardened heart with a new heart (1Sam 10:9) and enlightening them with the knowledge of truth initially (Heb 6:4, 10:26) which by no means guarantee their final salvation which is contingent upon the faith that endures (Heb 3:14). If this is acceptable, fair and tenable to you, then I could proceed with the assurance of salvation provided to the elect that builds further on this without negating any of what's presented so far.

The term "regeneration," Titus 3:5, ". . .Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; . . ." I understand this to be a reference to being saved which follows faith.

 

[37818]

Is salvation of God, or is it of man, or is it of God and man? That's the main question here.

Salvation is completely from God, ". . . that not of yourselves . . . ." Ephesians 2:8. And God gives it ". . . through faith . . . ." Unless God gives it, no amount of faith matters.

 

[ad finitum]

Is salvation of God, or is it of man, or is it of God and man? That's the main question here.

Several times, Jesus laments the lack of faith in the people. So is he lamenting God's choosing not to gift it?

 

[Brightfame52]

Salvation is completely from God, ". . . that not of yourselves . . . ." Ephesians 2:8. And God gives it ". . . through faith . . . ." Unless God gives it, no amount of faith matters.

Where does it say Christ laments the lack of faith?

 

[AustinC]

Several times, Jesus laments the lack of faith in the people. So is he lamenting God's choosing not to gift it?

No, he's lamenting their lack of using the gift God gave them as they were the people of the covenant.

 

[ad finitum]

No, he's lamenting their lack of using the gift God gave them as they were the people of the covenant.

So what you mean is that God can give you faith but you are free to behave as if He didn't. Then what is the difference between having belief, but not believing, and just plain not believing (because you can't)? Isn't that a distinction without a difference?

Who has the better excuse, the man for whom belief is physically impossible or the man who was gifted belief and then refused to do so?

 

[ad finitum]

Where does it say Christ laments the lack of faith?

Easy, look up "faithless generation", "great faith", "why did you doubt", etc. You know these passages already.

What's the difference between great faith and little faith? Is the quantity of faith from zero faith to little faith to great faith all God's decision?

 

[AustinC]

So what you mean is that God can give you faith but you are free to behave as if He didn't. Then what is the difference between having belief, but not believing, and just plain not believing (because you can't)? Isn't that a distinction without a difference?

Who has the better excuse, the man for whom belief is physically impossible or the man who was gifted belief and then refused to do so?

Jesus told a parable that may answer your question.

Matthew 21:28-32
“What do you think? A man had two sons. And he went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work in the vineyard today.’ And he answered, ‘I will not,’ but afterward he changed his mind and went. And he went to the other son and said the same. And he answered, ‘I go, sir,’ but did not go. Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes go into the kingdom of God before you. For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes believed him. And even when you saw it, you did not afterward change your minds and believe him.

 

[AustinC]

Easy, look up "faithless generation", "great faith", "why did you doubt", etc. You know these passages already.

What's the difference between great faith and little faith? Is the quantity of faith from zero faith to little faith to great faith all God's decision?

Again, Jesus may answer your question.

Matthew 25:14-30
“For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servantsand entrusted to them his property. To one he gave five talents,to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master’s money. Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.’ His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant.You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.’ His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

 

[ad finitum]

Jesus told a parable that may answer your question.

Matthew 21:28-32
“What do you think? A man had two sons. And he went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work in the vineyard today.’ And he answered, ‘I will not,’ but afterward he changed his mind and went. And he went to the other son and said the same. And he answered, ‘I go, sir,’ but did not go. Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes go into the kingdom of God before you. For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes believed him. And even when you saw it, you did not afterward change your minds and believe him.

The parable depicts people acting of their own free will. This suggests a faux paradox, that for a Calvinist to repent of his theological misunderstandings, God must gift him his repentance.

 

[ad finitum]

Again, Jesus may answer your question.

Matthew 25:14-30
“For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servantsand entrusted to them his property. To one he gave five talents,to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master’s money. Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.’ His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant.You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.’ His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

I don't ask Jesus questions but instead listen to what He says. Jesus asked questions of the Pharisees and in so doing put them to silence. Your not answering any of my questions yourself is the same as your silence.

 

[AustinC]

I don't ask Jesus questions but instead listen to what He says. Jesus asked questions of the Pharisees and in so doing put them to silence. Your not answering any of my questions yourself is the same as your silence.

Jesus answered your questions. How is it you do not understand this?

 

[AustinC]

The parable depicts people acting of their own free will. This suggests a faux paradox, that for a Calvinist to repent of his theological misunderstandings, God must gift him his repentance.

You fully misunderstand free will and God's sovereignty. Therefore you do not understand the parable. Please note that the person had two sons. This is similar to the parable of the prodigal.

It seems your idea of free will is that mans will is so unhindered by any binds that man can crush the will of God and make God subservient to man. I do not agree with such a tenant and recognize that man is always subservient to God and thus never free, but is always bound under the ordained will of God.

Therefore God will allow men to rebel against him and patiently wait to execute his judgment or extend his grace.

 

[ivdavid]

God first sanctifies to save (1 Peter 1:2, 2 Thessalonians 2:13),

Why do you see God sanctifying us as the first step? We are finally saved unto eternal life through sanctification - where does it say in Scriptures that the whole process of redemption begins with sanctification though? In fact, Rom 6:22 places sanctification after one's being set free from sin and becoming a servant of God.
What we can agree upon is the fact that God needs to act first in our redemption.

..to those who do not resist (Acts of the Apostles 7:51, Hebrews 10:29)

God saves only those who do not resist? Acts 7:51 was spoken to Paul too there - did he not continue to resist? In his own words, 1Tim 1:13 shows that he was a blasphemer and persecutor even after Stephen's stoning but he received mercy. Also, what does Paul mean by God's grace being abundant with faith and love in Christ Jesus (1Tim 1:14) - was God's grace abundant towards him because he had faith and love in Jesus or did God's grace cause faith and love in Jesus?

Heb 10:29 is not to be applied to unbelievers who reject the Gospel the first time they hear it given that they are not yet sanctified and have not yet received the knowledge of the truth (v.26), right? By that measure again, Paul shouldn't have any more sacrifice for sins after rejecting the Gospel when preached by the disciples, Stephen etc. initially.

Of course faith continues after regeneration, 1 John 5:1.

From this quote, I gather that you hold regeneration = being born again = salvation ? I do not equate regeneration (new heart, renewed spirit) with either being born again or of salvation because such an interpretation is contradicted in Scriptures. Hence I can reconcile regeneration preceding faith while faith still preceding salvation.

There are no scriptures that teach regeneration prior to faith.

Given that the word regeneration itself occurs only twice in Scriptures and neither of them mention faith in relation to it, we'd have to now derive the definition of regeneration from Scriptures and then proceed to link faith to it. I read regeneration to be whatever is described in say Psalms 51:10 and Eze 36:26. Do you hold the same and if not, why and what else do you hold to be regeneration?

 

[ivdavid]

When a person is redeemed on earth it is because God the Father had elected them before the foundation of the world. God the Father has a gift of faith prepared for His elect upon the time when He makes them alive with Christ.
Jesus expresses this wonderfully with his intercessional prayer.

You're preaching to the choir here on election - I am in complete agreement with all the above. It's just that the calvinist system is quick to conclude the direct opposite with regards to predestined condemnation of the non-elect - and that needn't necessarily be true or logically consistent. God gifting faith to the elect does not automatically imply God doesn't expect the non-elect to put their faith in God.

It's just entirely possible that both the calvinist and the arminian systems are at play simultaneously - the entire calvinist doctrines capturing all that pertains to the elect and the arminian system capturing all that pertains to the non-elect. So if the calvinist says the elect are saved purely by God's grace and mercy whereby God causes them to repent and believe and walk in His ways, I say Amen. And if the arminian says that the non-elect could've been saved if they had continued in the faith to the end after having received prevenient grace but are condemned because of their own falling away and rejecting Christ, I say Amen to that too.

What I do disagree with is the calvinist saying God predestined condemnation of the non-elect and the arminian saying that ultimately the elect are saved by faith that they self-generate.

 

[ivdavid]

Several times, Jesus laments the lack of faith in the people. So is he lamenting God's choosing not to gift it?

For context, I would be considered falling under the calvinist camp on most of these debates though I am more lutheran when it comes to election (single predestination). To your question, I'd pick the difference between the old covenant and the new covenant - the old commanded man to keep God's rules (Lev 18:5) while the new promised God causing His people to keep them (Eze 36:27). If one were to question God's several lamenting against man's disobedience of His rules as if to ask why He laments His own not causing obedience as He'd promised in the NT, then we're missing the point of holding the flesh responsible for its own failures first (Rom 3:19).

Faith in God is something initially expected of man himself - essentially the leaning on Christ for all righteousness by acknowledging the self is incapable of anything good or righteous. But man has a hardened heart and blinded minds which God graciously regenerates. Having been washed and renewed now, man still is to deny self and lean on Christ wholly which he now has been enlightened to do with the knowledge of the truth. But if he continues to walk by the flesh and return to the mud, then he will be held accountable for his unbelief.

However, if God graciously chooses to have mercy and determines to preserve such a person from falling away, He'd work out godly desires in man by His Spirit impressing upon him the truths of his own inability and Christ's glory - thereby authoring and continuing the complete dependence on Christ alone with the denial of self. This 'causing' to walk in His ways is what is considered the gift of repentance, faith, sanctification etc. in all whom He so chooses to work in.

So when God laments lack of faith, it's the flesh being held accountable while God receives all the glory when He works in and causes obedience.

 

[Brightfame52]

Easy, look up "faithless generation", "great faith", "why did you doubt", etc. You know these passages already.

What's the difference between great faith and little faith? Is the quantity of faith from zero faith to little faith to great faith all God's decision?

Once again:

Where does it say Christ laments the lack of faith?