False Religion of Arminianism

[KenH]

Then there cannot be general redemption.

Seems to me that the inconsistent believers in general redemption(the ones that are not universalists) are teaching that Christ shed His blood and purchased redemption for people but His efforts were "wasted"(which as we know from the narrow and wide paths would mean that most of His efforts were "wasted") on people whose will proved to be mightier than God's will.

 

[Reformed1689]

1 John 2:2 does not teach general redemption. The whole world means all people groups, not just his specific audience. It doesn't mean everyone. I do not understand why people try to force world to describe all individuals.

World Series Announcer: The eyes of the whole world are on this moment.

Does that mean every individual? Of course not.

1 Timothy 2:6: Verse 1 tells you this is types of people, all types of people, not individuals.

We have been over Luke Ad Nauseum as well as 2 Peter 2:1.

None of these verses teach a general redemption, and yes, general redemption NECESSITATES universalism by very definition.

 

[Reformed1689]

Seems to me that the inconsistent believers in general redemption(the ones that are not universalists) are teaching that Christ shed His blood and purchased redemption for people but His efforts were "wasted"(which as we know from the narrow and wide paths would mean that most of His efforts were "wasted") on people whose will proved to be mightier than God's will.

It is a very humanistic point of view.

 

[KenH]

1 John 2:2 does not teach general redemption. The whole world means all people groups, not just his specific audience. It doesn't mean everyone. I do not understand why people try to force world to describe all individuals.

World Series Announcer: The eyes of the whole world are on this moment.

Does that mean every individual? Of course not.

This is also clear from Luke 2:1: And it came to pass in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered.

Obviously, the world here is not every person on earth at that time. It is a specific group of people, over which the Romans had control.

 

[37818]

1 John 2:2 does not teach general redemption. The whole world means all people groups, not just his specific audience. It doesn't mean everyone. I do not understand why people try to force world to describe all individuals.

World Series Announcer: The eyes of the whole world are on this moment.

Does that mean every individual? Of course not.

1 Timothy 2:6: Verse 1 tells you this is types of people, all types of people, not individuals.

We have been over Luke Ad Nauseum as well as 2 Peter 2:1.

None of these verses teach a general redemption, and yes, general redemption NECESSITATES universalism by very definition.

Denial. Universalism does not require the redemption, because if universalism were true our disagreement would not matter.

 

[KenH]

Universalism does not require the redemption

Christian Universalism does.

 

[37818]

There is a question never answered from Scripture by the deniers of the general redemption.
The Scripture says, ". . . But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. . . .," 2 Peter 2:1.
Who bought them?
Jude 1:4, ". . . For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. . . ."

 

[37818]

Christian Universalism does.

If universalism were true, what anyone believes will not matter.

 

[KenH]

If universalism were true what anyone believes will not matter.

It is does in Christian Universalism.

 

[KenH]

There is a question never answered from Scripture by the deniers of the general redemption.
The Scripture says, ". . . But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. . . .," 2 Peter 2:1.
Who bought them?
Jude 1:4, ". . . For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. . . ."

"and even denying the Lord that bought them; not the Lord Jesus Christ, but God the Father; for the word κυριος is not here used, which always is where Christ is spoken of as the Lord, but δεσποτης; and which is expressive of the power which masters have over their servants (i), and which God has over all mankind; and wherever this word is elsewhere used, it is spoken of God the Father, whenever applied to a divine person, as in Luke 2:29 and especially this appears to be the sense, from the parallel text in Jude 1:4 where the Lord God denied by those men is manifestly distinguished from our Lord Jesus Christ, and by whom these persons are said to be bought: the meaning is not that they were redeemed by the blood of Christ, for Christ is not intended; and besides, whenever redemption by Christ is spoken of, the price is usually mentioned, or some circumstance or another which fully determines the sense; see Acts 20:28 whereas here is not the least hint of anything of this kind: add to this, that such who are redeemed by Christ are the elect of God only, the people of Christ, his sheep and friends, and church, and who are never left to deny him so as to perish eternally; for could such be lost, or deceive, or be deceived finally and totally by damnable heresies, and bring on themselves swift destruction, Christ's purchase would be in vain, and the ransom price be paid for nought; but the word "bought" regards temporal mercies and deliverance, which these men enjoyed, and is used as an aggravation of their sin in denying the Lord;"

John Gill, Gill's Bible Commentary

I don't see what Jude verse 4 has to do with your argument. It states right in the verse that those men are ungodly.

 

[37818]

Christian Universalism does.

Also there is no such thing as "Christian" univsalism. Because it is not Christian. And with universalism what one believes cannot matter.

 

[37818]

"and even denying the Lord that bought them; not the Lord Jesus Christ, but God the Father; for the word κυριος is not here used, which always is where Christ is spoken of as the Lord, but δεσποτης; and which is expressive of the power which masters have over their servants (i), and which God has over all mankind; and wherever this word is elsewhere used, it is spoken of God the Father, whenever applied to a divine person, as in Luke 2:29 and especially this appears to be the sense, from the parallel text in Jude 1:4 where the Lord God denied by those men is manifestly distinguished from our Lord Jesus Christ, and by whom these persons are said to be bought: the meaning is not that they were redeemed by the blood of Christ, for Christ is not intended; and besides, whenever redemption by Christ is spoken of, the price is usually mentioned, or some circumstance or another which fully determines the sense; see Acts 20:28 whereas here is not the least hint of anything of this kind: add to this, that such who are redeemed by Christ are the elect of God only, the people of Christ, his sheep and friends, and church, and who are never left to deny him so as to perish eternally; for could such be lost, or deceive, or be deceived finally and totally by damnable heresies, and bring on themselves swift destruction, Christ's purchase would be in vain, and the ransom price be paid for nought; but the word "bought" regards temporal mercies and deliverance, which these men enjoyed, and is used as an aggravation of their sin in denying the Lord;"

John Gill, Gill's Bible Commentary

I don't see what Jude verse 4 has to do with your argument. It states right in the verse that those men are ungodly.

You don't see.
In 2 Peter 2:1, who is the Lord{δεσποτην} that bought them? Which the deniers never answer.
In Jude 1:4, the Lord{δεσποτην} God.

 

[KenH]

Also there is no such thing as "Christian" univsalism.

Actually, there is. It teaches that salvation is only through Christ and that those who are not converted in this life will suffer correction in hell sufficient to eventually bring them to conversion.

 

[KenH]

And with universalism what one believes cannot matter.

It does with Christian Universalism.

 

[KenH]

You don't see.
In 2 Peter 2:1, who is the Lord{δεσποτην} that bought them? Which the deniers never answer.
In Jude 1:4, the Lord{δεσποτην} God.

I guess you missed where Gill dealt with that.

Seriously, @37818, your arguments thus far are really weak and easily refuted with Scripture.

 

[37818]

Actually, there is. It teaches that salvation is only through Christ and that those who are not converted in this life will suffer correction in hell sufficient to eventually bring them to conversion.

So the bottom line is if it is universalism it ultimately still does not matter in this life what one believes. It is not true Christianity. Forever is not really forever. So what is supposed about eternity in Hell would be true about eternal life too. It is nonsense.

 

[37818]

I guess you missed where Gill dealt with that.

Seriously, @37818, your arguments thus far are really weak and easily refuted with Scripture.

Does not change the fact of the general redemption. Without the general redemption the lost could not know Christ died for them, Romans 5:8, 1 Corinthians 15:3-4.

 

[KenH]

So the bottom line is if it is universalism it ultimately still does not matter in this life what one believes. It is not true Christianity. Forever is not really forever. So what is supposed about eternity in Hell would be true about eternal life too. It is nonsense.

Obviously, there is a lot more to the theology of Christian Universalism than the one sentence I wrote. I am simply pointing out that there are people that hold to the necessity of Christ's atonement for sins that believe that God will ultimately save all human beings.

 

[KenH]

Without the general redemption the lost could not know Christ died for them

God's elect will certainly know that their sins were imputed to Christ and that He suffered the penalty for them and that Christ's righteousness has been imputed to them so that they possess a perfect righteousness that they could never produce.

 

[37818]

Obviously, there is a lot more to the theology of Christian Universalism than the one sentence I wrote. I am simply pointing out that there are people that hold to the necessity of Christ's atonement for sins that believe that God will ultimately save all human beings.

I had briefly studied this so-call "Christian" universalism in 1969 from someone who believed and taught it. Eternal isn't for Hell, but it is for eternal life? Nonsense.