Faulty Logic, Faulty Theology

[church mouse guy]

What I am saying is mainstream but different from your opinion. I am saying Adam was created a natural rather than spiritual man (actually, Paul said it and I am repeating Paul).

Natural man is not by nature spiritually alive. This does not mean natural man was alive spiritually and then died spiritually (as while also a mainstream opinion it is foreign to the Bible).

I don't know what you are talking about when you say 2 Corinthians 15. Please clarify that. Adam was not a natural man. A natural man is the descendant of Adam, who is born a sinner. Adam was created perfect and only sinned when he followed Eve into sin. Once Adam sinned, then he had to have animals killed and sacrificed for his clothing. So death happened right away and blood was shed right away.

However, Adam was created to live eternally and so Adam had a soul. Genesis 2:7 (KJV) And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

 

[MB]

I don't know what you are talking about when you say 2 Corinthians 15. Please clarify that. Adam was not a natural man. A natural man is the descendant of Adam, who is born a sinner. Adam was created perfect and only sinned when he followed Eve into sin. Once Adam sinned, then he had to have animals killed and sacrificed for his clothing. So death happened right away and blood was shed right away.

However, Adam was created to live eternally and so Adam had a soul. Genesis 2:7 (KJV) And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Where doe scripture say we are born sinners?
MB

 

[JonC]

@JonC you keep saying that Adam was not spiritually alive, but acknowledge he was dead in sin after his sin. So what was he before he was dead? Just in some state of limbo?

No, not limbo. Scripture tells us EXACTLY what Adam was.

Adam was "natural man", and "not spiritual". Adam was "flesh". Adam was "upright". Adam was "a living soul".

Scripture makes sence to me without the added doctrine you use to come to terms with "the Fall". In fact, as Scripture stands it carries through with being alive in the Spirit throughout (my view of bring alive in the Spirit is constant - it is eternal and not subject to sin and death).

 

[Reformed1689]

No, not limbo. Scripture tells us EXACTLY what Adam was.

Adam was "natural man", and "not spiritual". Adam was "flesh". Adam was "upright". Adam was "a living soul".

Scripture makes sence to me without the added doctrine you use to come to terms with "the Fall". In fact, as Scripture stands it carries through with being alive in the Spirit throughout (my view of bring alive in the Spirit is constant - it is eternal and not subject to sin and death).

And you are dodging the issue. If he was not dead in sin, what was he before? None of those things changed after sin but something about Adam did change that was now dead in his sin. So what was he before sin?

 

[InTheLight]

And you are dodging the issue. If he was not dead in sin, what was he before? None of those things changed after sin but something about Adam did change that was now dead in his sin. So what was he before sin?

He's answered this about a half dozen times already.

Adam was "natural man", and "not spiritual". Adam was "flesh". Adam was "upright". Adam was "a living soul".

JonC says before the Fall Adam was "not spiritual". Therefore, according to JonC, he was not "spiritually alive". (Jon, correct me if I'm overstepping and not presenting your position correctly.)

 

[Reformed1689]

He's answered this about a half dozen times already.



JonC says before the Fall Adam was "not spiritual". Therefore, according to JonC, he was not "spiritually alive". (Jon, correct me if I'm overstepping and not presenting your position correctly.)

And that is precisely the non-answer. It does not deal with the issue that Adam was dead in sin after the sin. What was he before? If something is now dead but was not before, there had to be a prior state that was impacted by the sin. What was it?

 

[JonC]

And you are dodging the issue. If he was not dead in sin, what was he before? None of those things changed after sin but something about Adam did change that was now dead in his sin. So what was he before sin?

I am not dodging the question, David.

Scripture tells us that before Adam was dead in his sins he was "flesh", "natural man", " not Spiritual man", and "upright".

So what changed (per Scripture)? Perhaps he was no longer "upright". His eyes were opened. And he was in a state of "spiritual death".

You do not have to invent a mythology to serve as a narrative. When Scripture itself is no longer adequate to answer your questions then perhaps you may want to reexamine your questions.

 

[JonC]

He's answered this about a half dozen times already.



JonC says before the Fall Adam was "not spiritual". Therefore, according to JonC, he was not "spiritually alive". (Jon, correct me if I'm overstepping and not presenting your position correctly.)

Exactly. Scripture speaks of Adam in context of the "flesh" and "natural man", specifically stating Adam was created natural and not spiritual.

There was no context prior to the fall for Adam to be considered alive in the spirit or dead spiritually. Adam was created natural.

Also, Scripture presents the spiritual as not subject to death so I do not see how this conversation continues.

 

[Reformed1689]

I am not dodging the question, David.

Scripture tells us that before Adam was dead in his sins he was "flesh", "natural man", " not Spiritual man", and "upright".

So what changed (per Scripture)? Perhaps he was no longer "upright". His eyes were opened. And he was in a state of "spiritual death".

You do not have to invent a mythology to serve as a narrative. When Scripture itself is no longer adequate to answer your questions then perhaps you may want to reexamine your questions.

Scripture is adequate. But my point is that Scripture clearly teaches Adam died a spiritual death after the fall. You have not dealt with what Adam was prior to the fall with regard to being dead in sin. I understand that you think you have but you have not. Adam was still flesh and a natural man after the fall so that doesn't tell us anything about the now dead in sin. My argument is that spiritually alive is a return to that upright state, a state of righteousness if you will. Adam had no need for a savior prior to the fall because there was nothing to be saved from. You want so badly for it to be explicitly spelled out in Scripture by one verse or passage but that isn't how we study Scripture. Otherwise you cannot hold to the Trinity. You seem to have two sets of rules.

 

[Reformed1689]

Exactly. Scripture speaks of Adam in context of the "flesh" and "natural man", specifically stating Adam was created natural and not spiritual.

There was no context prior to the fall for Adam to be considered alive in the spirit or dead spiritually. Adam was created natural.

Also, Scripture presents the spiritual as not subject to death so I do not see how this conversation continues.

It continues because this is yet another non-answer to the question.

 

[Yeshua1]

This is not true. We can believe or conclude, but not know. The assumption is Adam experienced a spiritual death because he is in the state of being spiritually dead (and dead in his sins).

We could just as easily assume Adam was not created "spiritually alive" but simply as natural man, upright and sinless. With sin, death enters the world and Adam is absent Life (he is spiritually dead).

The problem comes in when we treat our assumptions as if they were actually taught in Scripture. We can stand firm in our views but should also be careful not to be too dependent on them.

Adam had no need to have a mediator between Him and God though, no Messiah, so had spiritual life in him!

 

[Yeshua1]

This is not true. We can believe or conclude, but not know. The assumption is Adam experienced a spiritual death because he is in the state of being spiritually dead (and dead in his sins).

We could just as easily assume Adam was not created "spiritually alive" but simply as natural man, upright and sinless. With sin, death enters the world and Adam is absent Life (he is spiritually dead).

The problem comes in when we treat our assumptions as if they were actually taught in Scripture. We can stand firm in our views but should also be careful not to be too dependent on them.

You are speculating/affirming just as much as any of us that would hold to Adam had spiritual life and was immortal before he fell!

 

[Yeshua1]

Yet, in the whole context of Scripture, we know that Adam did, in fact, die on that very day. He was now dead in sin.

Dead in sin, spiritual death, brought to pass his physical death!

 

[Yeshua1]

I agree.

And being alive in the spirit is everlasting per Scripture.

So where are we? Scripture says Adam was not created spiritual but natural. So Adam was created natural and upright. When Adam sinned death entered the world.

Why add to Scripture a "spiritual dying"?

That is a question for you to consider, you can believe whatever you want. My concern is that you seem to impose it on others as biblical fact when it is actually absent from Scripture.

You and those who disagree with you (like me) agree on Scripture and disagree on the assumption you make regarding Adam dying spiritually.

Adam did not need a messiah before he fell, no need for a mediator between him and God, so what changed in him demanding him now needing a messiah?

 

[JonC]

It continues because this is yet another non-answer to the question.

You say Scripture is adequate, but when I say that prior to the fall Adam was "upright", "not spiritual", "natural", "flesh", and "a living soul" and that spiritual life is not subject "to the law of sin and death", is "everlasting", is of the "imperishable seed", and that after Adam sinned he was "dead in his sins" you say that is a non-answer.

You cannot have it both ways. Either Scripture is adequate or Adam must have been "spiritually alive" and experienced "spiritually dying".

We all have to choose our standards and those we will follow. I have chosen mine and cannot agree with your narrative because not only is it foreign to Scripture but there are places where it is an outright denial of Scripture (like this spiritual life being eternal, of the imperishable seed, in opposition to the natural, and not subject to death).

As long as you can convey the gospel through your story I will encourage you to reach the lost because myth or Scripture the gospel is communicated and God is glorified, even if to a lesser extent.

 

[Yeshua1]

This is not true, David.

The state of being dead spiritually, dead on our sin, is in Scripture. But you are applying this in a way that Scripture never does. Even @Martin Marprelate pointed out that the "die, die" of Genesis is used elsewhere in Scripture and it refers to a certainty of physical death (the death of natural man). And so many passages (that have been provided) state that Adam was not created spiritually alive but alive in the "flesh", alive as "natural" man.

Your error here is not that your conclusions are wrong. I believe they are wrong. Your error here is that you have elevated your theories to be on par with Scriputre.

In Genesis we both agree with Scripture - God told Adam that on the day he ate of the fruit he would surely (or certainly) die. The text states that death would be certain. Later in Scripture (again, as @Martin Marprelate points out) these words are used to describe a man dying physically. So we agree that death entered the world through sin, that on the day Adam ate of the fruit death would be a certainty.

Where we disagree is that you somehow read that passage to say that God told Adam on the day he ate of the fruit he would surely die, he would die physically a long time from then but he would spiritually die on the day that he ate of the fruit. You add so much to Scripture.

Paul must have been adding to scripture to then, for he saw Adam Fall being the very source of us now being spiritual dead in our sins and transgressions!

 

[Yeshua1]

You say Scripture is adequate, but when I say that prior to the fall Adam was "upright", "not spiritual", "natural", "flesh", and "a living soul" and that spiritual life is not subject "to the law of sin and death", is "everlasting", is of the "imperishable seed", and that after Adam sinned he was "dead in his sins" you say that is a non-answer.

You cannot have it both ways. Either Scripture is adequate or Adam must have been "spiritually alive" and experienced "spiritually dying".

We all have to choose our standards and those we will follow. I have chosen mine and cannot agree with your narrative because not only is it foreign to Scripture but there are places where it is an outright denial of Scripture (like this spiritual life being eternal, of the imperishable seed, in opposition to the natural, and not subject to death).

As long as you can convey the gospel through your story I will encourage you to reach the lost because myth or Scripture the gospel is communicated and God is glorified, even if to a lesser extent.

The spiritual life that you refer to would be us in our glorified state, but we right now have eternal life still in this weak and corrupted flesh, same way Adam had it, save that he had not corrupted flesh when created!

 

[JonC]

You are speculating/affirming just as much as any of us that would hold to Adam had spiritual life and was immortal before he fell!

I was actually offering Scripture. That is the difference. Scripture says Adam was created "upright", "flesh", "natural man", "not spiritual man", and "a living soul". That is not speculation. What Scripture does not say is that Adam was created "spiritual" (it in fact states the opposite) and died spiritually (it states that life in the spirit is eternal, not subject to death or corruption, not temporary, and not natural).

So no. There is a huge difference. You view Scripture as speculation and speculation as if it were Scripture.

 

[Yeshua1]

He was not dead in sin prior to sinning. You are assuming this means God created him with "spiritual life" when Scripture says he was created "flesh", "a living soul", "upright", "natural" and NOT a "spiritual being".

I believe that God created Adam "flesh", "a living soul", a "natural man", "not a spiritual man", and "upright". When Adam sinned death entered the world. Adam (like all men) were dead in his sins and trespasses. He was not dead in his sins before he sinned. It was through his sin that death entered the world. All of that (to include Adam not being created a spiritual man but a natural man) is in Scripture.

We agree on the text of Scripture (that God told Adam on the day he ate of the fruit he would certainly/ surely die). We agree (I hope) that God created Adam "flesh", "natural man", a "living soul", "upright" but "not spiritual man" as this is in Scripture itself.

Where we disagree is that the text of Scripture seems complete and logical to me (it makes sense to me as it is stated) while you seem to see it as less than adequate to address the Fall. You continue by adding that Adam died spiritually the day he ate of the fruit, and physically later on with the emphasis being on this "spiritually dying" which is not actually mentioned in the Bible.

I do not accept what you are adding, but we can agree at least on what is actually in Scripture itself. There is no word for "spiritually dying" because it is a concept foreign to Scripture (in the Bible spiritual life never subject to death because it is spiritual and of God's spirit rather than natural and of the flesh).

We are all flesh here, physical alive, but also spiritually alive, correct?

 

[MB]

I was actually offering Scripture. That is the difference. Scripture says Adam was created "upright", "flesh", "natural man", "not spiritual man", and "a living soul". That is not speculation. What Scripture does not say is that Adam was created "spiritual" (it in fact states the opposite) and died spiritually (it states that life in the spirit is eternal, not subject to death or corruption, not temporary, and not natural).

So no. There is a huge difference. You view Scripture as speculation and speculation as if it were Scripture.

Amen to that.
MB