Final and Only Authority

[Adonia]

A true Baptist Church has no central authority.

The letters written By St. Paul to the various outlying churches was the "central authority" exerting itself. He was telling them where they were messing up and instructing them in the proper ways. We have had Jesus Christ, St. Paul, the Apostles, and then the Bishops of the Church who came after them. There was always a central authority in Christianity.

 

[Adonia]

Add to that the fact that the Pope at any time necessary can issue a papal Bull or speak infallibly in ex cathedra to resolve issues.

There is so much confusion as to how the Pope actually acts out there. Contrary to the general public understanding, the Pope does not act alone. He acts in concert with the other Bishop's of the Church after a synod or council is held, with an example being the 2nd Vatican Council.

What is a Papal Bull? A papal bull is a pope’s official, formal decree establishing a religious order, clarifying a doctrine, ratifying other documents, founding a university, convoking a general council, declaring a jubilee or making a similar statement. So we can see that this is the Pope merely clarifying a doctrine or a setting a particular council of synod into motion by this device.

 

[Bro. James]

The letters written By St. Paul to the various outlying churches was the "central authority" exerting itself. He was telling them where they were messing up and instructing them in the proper ways. We have had Jesus Christ, St. Paul, the Apostles, and then the Bishops of the Church who came after them. There was always a central authority in Christianity.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The first Church was in Jerusalem. How and when did the "central authority" move to Rome? There is scripture that Paul went to Rome. There is little if any corroboration that Peter was in Rome, other than in the New Advent Encyclopedia. Somewhat suddenly in the fourth century, we find Constantine the Great endorsing a so-called christian church in Rome complete with a pontiff which is also speculation. There was a marriage of this so-called church to The Roman State in 380 AD. The rest is New Advent History.

The rest of the story: there were Saints out there who regarded the above as antichrist--they would have no part of it. Still don't.

Many were sawn assunder. The gates of hell have not prevailed. Some are still out there, watching and waiting for the bridegroom.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

 

[HankD]

There is so much confusion as to how the Pope actually acts out there. Contrary to the general public understanding, the Pope does not act alone. He acts in concert with the other Bishop's of the Church after a synod or council is held, with an example being the 2nd Vatican Council.

What is a Papal Bull? A papal bull is a pope’s official, formal decree establishing a religious order, clarifying a doctrine, ratifying other documents, founding a university, convoking a general council, declaring a jubilee or making a similar statement. So we can see that this is the Pope merely clarifying a doctrine or a setting a particular council of synod into motion by this device.

Agreed.

HankD

 

[utilyan]

You haven't proven your church is the Final Authority. You point to the Final Authority to prove your church is the Final Authority. How ironic.

I'm a Baptist now.

Back to the subject:

Show us this verse that plainly states the bible is the Final and Only authority.


Either cough up the verse you said exists or tell us its unbiblical.

 

[steaver]

Two questions for you;

1) Can a person be taught by God and saved through reading the Scripture alone?

2) Can a person be taught by God how to love God and love their neighbor through reading the Scripture alone?

You have deceptively worded your question to where obviously a person could only say yes.


Scripture ALONE however does not work.

If the only answer is yes, then Scripture ALONE does work and the RCC is irrelevant. Two ingredients are needed; 1) God's Word 2) God

Haven't you noticed God has done quite well since He had Luther protest the RCC's errors in teaching? Millions saved and serving WITHOUT any help whatsoever from the RCC. God warned He would be removing candlesticks and that is what He had to do.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;"

 

[HankD]

I'm a Baptist now.

Back to the subject:

Show us this verse that plainly states the bible is the Final and Only authority.


Either cough up the verse you said exists or tell us its unbiblical.

I will repeat that it is based upon the rediscovery by Martin Luther that the just shall live by faith
Do you believe that the Blessed Virgin Mary was delivered from original sin by faith or by scripture or something other than scripture called Holy Tradition.

Are you willing to say that the 4 Marian dogmas are unbiblical because they cannot be found in the bible?

The four dogmas of perpetual virginity, Mother of God, Immaculate Conception and Assumption.

We have all (Catholic, Protestant, Moslem, Buddhist, Hindu...) made faith choices which cannot be supported by scripture but by faith.

HankD

 

[steaver]

We have all (Catholic, Protestant, Moslem, Buddhist, Hindu...) made faith choices which cannot be supported by scripture but by faith.

I'm not so sure I am following your faith premise. You do not think choosing the Word of God as your Final Authority is based on Scripture?

 

[Aaron]

This is how I know this debate will sound like.

Imagine you have a WHITE car and some man comes and says it is BLUE.

You ask him to show you where it is blue, So he proceeds to tell you a car must have four wheels, an engine, when you turn the key it turns on the car, and when you step on the gas it moves around, so therefore the car is BLUE!

He will emphasize all that is True to obscure his falsehood which is the car is blue when it clearly is not.

Our Protestant and Reformed brethren swear there is a verse in the bible that says the BIBLE is the FINAL AND ONLY AUTHORITY.

Show us this VERSE.

We are not asking for verses that show the bible is TRUE(the car has an engine) or that it is important(the car has four wheels), We indeed believe the bible is true and important.

What we want is the verse that says the BIBLE is the FINAL and ONLY AUTHORITY(the car is blue)

We agree the bible is God breathed(you turn the key to start the car) and that the bible is PROFITABLE and helpful(stepping on the gas moves the car)

We however want to see this VERSE they claim exists, that the BIBLE is the FINAL and ONLY authority(the car is blue).

Show us this verse or admit it is unbiblical.

Lol. It doesn't need to say it. If you belch something in the name of God that disagrees with the Scripture, it's false.

If it does agree with the Scriptures, then your gas is needless.

 

[Bro. James]

John 14:6, "I am The Way, The Truth, and The Life; no one comes to the Father but by Me." Jesus narrowed the playing field in a profound, not so ecumenical statement. He also said He has all authority in heaven and earth.

"In vain they do worship, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

In Matthew 7: 21-29, Jesus tells a group who had done all manner of good things in His Name to: "Depart from Me, I have never known you." See also verse 15--the wolves dressed like sheep.

Choose wisely.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

 

[Adonia]

I will repeat that it is based upon the rediscovery by Martin Luther that the just shall live by faith
Do you believe that the Blessed Virgin Mary was delivered from original sin by faith or by scripture or something other than scripture called Holy Tradition.

Are you willing to say that the 4 Marian dogmas are unbiblical because they cannot be found in the bible?

The four dogmas of perpetual virginity, Mother of God, Immaculate Conception and Assumption.

We have all (Catholic, Protestant, Moslem, Buddhist, Hindu...) made faith choices which cannot be supported by scripture but by faith.

HankD

You are making some good points about us having faith which causes us to believe things. I mean really, the whole Christian story is based on believing because of faith. We believe in a God we cannot see; we believe that He sent His Son here to earth via a virgin birth; we believe that He performed miracles during His life and we believe that His very act of dying offers us forgiveness for our sins. Yes, one way or another it all comes down to faith.

 

[Adonia]

He also said He has all authority in heaven and earth.

And He also said that He gave this same authority to His chosen followers and thus the Church. If you just have a little faith you will come to know this truth. Choose wisely!

 

[HankD]

I'm not so sure I am following your faith premise. You do not think choosing the Word of God as your Final Authority is based on Scripture?

For the Christian this is the explanation:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

HankD

 

[utilyan]

Two questions for you;

1) Can a person be taught by God and saved through reading the Scripture alone?

2) Can a person be taught by God how to love God and love their neighbor through reading the Scripture alone?



If the only answer is yes, then Scripture ALONE does work and the RCC is irrelevant. Two ingredients are needed; 1) God's Word 2) God

Haven't you noticed God has done quite well since He had Luther protest the RCC's errors in teaching? Millions saved and serving WITHOUT any help whatsoever from the RCC. God warned He would be removing candlesticks and that is what He had to do.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;"

The major point of contention between Luther and Catholics is he believe in faith alone, while we believe in faith + doing things right.

So his having to protest, correct, splitting off, just goes to show how he self-refutes his own principles.

If faith alone is all that is required VOID of having to do things right which is what we insist you have to do, then why complain about Catholics doing anything wrong? It only proves us right, since we insist its not faith alone but you have to do things right.

A genuine true believer of faith alone would prove himself right by faith alone, not by requiring action taken like leaving to start his own church and then complaining that folks are doing things wrong.

So what if they do things wrong? Our biggest difference is you insist on faith alone and that you don't have to do things right.

 

[HankD]

The major point of contention between Luther and Catholics is he believe in faith alone, while we believe in faith + doing things right.

So his having to protest, correct, splitting off, just goes to show how he self-refutes his own principles.

If faith alone is all that is required VOID of having to do things right which is what we insist you have to do, then why complain about Catholics doing anything wrong? It only proves us right, since we insist its not faith alone but you have to do things right.

A genuine true believer of faith alone would prove himself right by faith alone, not by requiring action taken like leaving to start his own church and then complaining that folks are doing things wrong.

So what if they do things wrong? Our biggest difference is you insist on faith alone and that you don't have to do things right.

In that respect we have similar beliefs but in our interpretation of scripture, good works are an outcome of faith.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

If we do bad things we also have a similar belief - confession of sin. We believe acknowledgement of sin can be done directly to God.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Starting a new church: Well, honestly looking out over the vast expanse of Christendom we (non-Catholics) do appear to many as if we are sheep without a shepherd. Look at it this way, if the RCC is the True Church they have not done a good job listening to their "protests" - some yes but many abuses still seem to us to be falling on deaf ears.

e.g. (just one example): Statues in the churches seem as idols which are worshiped.
Although A couple of years ago I was really surprised. I went to a funeral mass of a close friend and there were no statues in this church, the mass was in English, there was responsive scripture readings and there were altar girls!

The altar girls were the biggest surprise!

HankD

 

[steaver]

For the Christian this is the explanation:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

HankD

I believe you are mixing issues together. We are talking about Final Authority, not salvation. Are you saying you only judge the Scripture is the Final Authority by faith only, nothing pointing to this is found within that Scripture?

 

[steaver]

The major point of contention between Luther and Catholics is he believe in faith alone, while we believe in faith + doing things right.

But you are a Catholic and you have rigorously debated with me in several threads that NO faith in Jesus Christ is necessary, a Good Samaritan deed would suffice, they can reject Jesus Christ and their good deed would still save them.

 

[HankD]

I believe you are mixing issues together. We are talking about Final Authority, not salvation. Are you saying you only judge the Scripture is the Final Authority by faith only, nothing pointing to this is found within that Scripture?

How do you know the scripture comes from God?

Answer utilyan's question. Is there even a scripture that says it claims to be the final and only authority?

Even if there were how could you prove it to be true?

You can't.

Faith is the victory.

1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Even salvation is by grace through faith. Ephesians 2:8-9.

HankD

 

[FollowTheWay]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The first Church was in Jerusalem. How and when did the "central authority" move to Rome? There is scripture that Paul went to Rome. There is little if any corroboration that Peter was in Rome, other than in the New Advent Encyclopedia. Somewhat suddenly in the fourth century, we find Constantine the Great endorsing a so-called christian church in Rome complete with a pontiff which is also speculation. There was a marriage of this so-called church to The Roman State in 380 AD. The rest is New Advent History.

The rest of the story: there were Saints out there who regarded the above as antichrist--they would have no part of it. Still don't.

Many were sawn assunder. The gates of hell have not prevailed. Some are still out there, watching and waiting for the bridegroom.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

I'm interested in your belief that baptists never were a part of the Catholic Church nor Reformation. I don't believe that myself. My view is that Baptists came out of groups that split off the English Congregational Church.

The earliest Baptist church is traced back to 1609 in Amsterdam, with John Smyth as pastor. The group's embracing of "believer's baptism" became the defining moment which led to the establishment of this first Baptist church. Shortly thereafter, Smyth left the group, and Thomas Helwys took over the leadership, leading the church back to England in 1611.

These two formed the General and particular branches of the Baptist Church.If this didn't happen where were the Baptists from Pentecost until coming to America?

 

[JonC]

Imagine you have an OCEAN BLUE car and some man comes along and says it is WHITE.

You believe you have an OCEAN BLUE car not because it looks blue to you but because the painter and creator of the car has written a description of the exact hue of blue it is.

But the man argues that his club of car enthusiasts are an authority on car colors and have determined it to be, in fact, WHITE.

He then wants proof from you that the painter and creator of the vehicle’s description is the only and final authority.

How long would you entertain the man’s demands?