Flawless Bible Poll

[George Antonios]

They do not contain contradictory verses. They may contain contradictions in translations

This is double-speak.
Are you not aware that certain verses between versions state the exact opposite thing?

 

[Dave G]

They do not contain contradictory verses.

Not wanting to argue, but I'd like to point out some details that I think should be considered...
To me, they do, Jon...in many places.

Here's a sampling, and I agree that it is probably one of the most drastic:

" Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 but made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." ( Philippians 2:5-8, AV ).

" Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross." ( Philippians 2:5-8, ESV )

Can you spot the differences?
To me, verse 6 is the most profound and obvious.

I've also underlined what I see to be the contradictions between the two.

 

[Dave G]

Here is another:

" This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." ( 1 John 5:6-8, AV ).

" This is he who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
7 For there are three that testify:
8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree." ( 1 John 5:6-8, ESV ).

Those are two of many.
Some passages don't say the same thing, while others leave out ( or add in, depending upon one's perspective ), thereby essentially contradicting the words on the page...

At least in my own opinion.
You decide.

 

[Dave G]

One more:

" Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep [market] a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches.
3 In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water.
4 For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.
5 And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years." ( John 5:2-5, AV ).

" Now there is in Jerusalem by the Sheep Gate a pool, in Aramaic called Bethesda, which has five roofed colonnades.
3 In these lay a multitude of invalids—blind, lame, and paralyzed.
5 One man was there who had been an invalid for thirty-eight years." ( John 5:2-5, ESV ).

Contradiction:

In verse 2, the AV has the words, "In the Hebrew tongue" while the ESV has the words, "in Aramaic".
Notwithstanding the actual words, the two languages are not even the same...
Hebrew is of ancient Israel in origin, while Aramaic is of ancient Syria in origin.

Also, there's the matter of verse 4 where one has it, and the other contradicts the former by not having it.

With that, I take my leave of this thread.
Good evening to you all, and may the Lord's peace be upon you.

 

[JonC]

This is double-speak.
Are you not aware that certain verses between versions state the exact opposite thing?

I do not believe you understand what I am saying.

No English translation contains the words originally recorded in Scripture. The KJV, for example, say "the Word became flesh". But "word" does not communicate the meaning of "Logos".

So by your standard the KJV (along with any translation) is a flawed Bible and man can have no faith in the Scriptures they hold.

But that is the way of translations. Your complaint is that translations differ. But you confuse this with the mistaken idea God's perfect words do not transcend translation.

Again, what are "words"?

 

[JonC]

One more:

" Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep [market] a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches.
3 In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water.
4 For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.
5 And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years." ( John 5:2-5, AV ).

" Now there is in Jerusalem by the Sheep Gate a pool, in Aramaic called Bethesda, which has five roofed colonnades.
3 In these lay a multitude of invalids—blind, lame, and paralyzed.
5 One man was there who had been an invalid for thirty-eight years." ( John 5:2-5, ESV ).

Contradiction:

In verse 2, the AV has the words, "In the Hebrew tongue" while the ESV has the words, "in Aramaic".
Notwithstanding the actual words, the two languages are not even the same...
Hebrew is of ancient Israel in origin, while Aramaic is of ancient Syria in origin.

Also, there's the matter of verse 4 where one has it, and the other contradicts the former by not having it.

With that, I take my leave of this thread.
Good evening to you all, and may the Lord's peace be upon you.

Well don't just toss out posts and leave .

The Hebrew word for the pool is בית חסד/חסדא. The Aramaic word is بيثيسدا.

Are you saying all English translations are incorrect?

More to the point, do you believe that God was communicating to men the name of the pool???!!!

 

[JonC]

Here is another:

" This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." ( 1 John 5:6-8, AV ).

" This is he who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
7 For there are three that testify:
8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree." ( 1 John 5:6-8, ESV ).

Those are two of many.
Some passages don't say the same thing, while others leave out ( or add in, depending upon one's perspective ), thereby essentially contradicting the words on the page...

At least in my own opinion.
You decide.

I do not see where you get that these translations are communicating a different message. What do you think God is communicating here?

 

[JonC]

Not wanting to argue, but I'd like to point out some details that I think should be considered...
To me, they do, Jon...in many places.

Here's a sampling, and I agree that it is probably one of the most drastic:

" Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 but made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." ( Philippians 2:5-8, AV ).

" Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross." ( Philippians 2:5-8, ESV )

Can you spot the differences?
To me, verse 6 is the most profound and obvious.

I've also underlined what I see to be the contradictions between the two.

Again, it appears that you are taking a legalistic position, as if God had to dictate English words to human authors.

What, in your opinion, are words?

Why do you believe the NT does not always quote the OT verbatim?

 

[George Antonios]

I do not believe you understand what I am saying.

No English translation contains the words originally recorded in Scripture. The KJV, for example, say "the Word became flesh". But "word" does not communicate the meaning of "Logos".

So by your standard the KJV (along with any translation) is a flawed Bible and man can have no faith in the Scriptures they hold.

But that is the way of translations. Your complaint is that translations differ. But you confuse this with the mistaken idea God's perfect words do not transcend translation.

Again, what are "words"?

You didn't answer the question. Are you aware that sundry versions/translations contradict each other in the same verse?

 

[George Antonios]

Not wanting to argue, but I'd like to point out some details that I think should be considered...
To me, they do, Jon...in many places.

Here's a sampling, and I agree that it is probably one of the most drastic:

" Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 but made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." ( Philippians 2:5-8, AV ).

" Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross." ( Philippians 2:5-8, ESV )

Can you spot the differences?
To me, verse 6 is the most profound and obvious.

I've also underlined what I see to be the contradictions between the two.

wow, that Philippians 2:6 in the ESV is brutal, I can hardly believe I never noticed that before.
That undermines the deity of Christ.
I honestly don't know how Christians are all cool about such things.

 

[JonC]

You didn't answer the question. Are you aware that sundry versions/translations contradict each other in the same verse?

Each translation? No translation is perfect. This does not make man (or translators) greater than God. God's perfect words are preserved through these translations.

For centuries the English speaking world relied dominently on the KJV. But we know the KJV is flawed - NOT flawed as a translation (all translations are inherently flawed) but flawed in that it does not always translate the source text into the target language.

For example, with "the Word became flesh", "word" is not "logos" and it does not communicate the exact word the translators are striving to convey (it is probably the closest we can get, but it is not the exact word).

Again, how do you define "words"? What do words do?

 

[atpollard]

Has God preserved all his words in ANY, 100% error-free, Bible that I could obtain?

“All His words”? ... No.

John 21:25 [NKJV] And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.

 

[Chad Whiteley]

I can't in good faith answer the question because it's worded incorrectly. What is "error-free?" What is "preserved." The Word of God is preserved forever in the person of Jesus Christ, not a book. Human language is the medium by which God chose to reveal Himself, even though human language is not perfect, because it's made by humans. It is the demonstration of the Spirit's power in spite of human language whereby men are convicted.

I say all this as an ardent KJV defender (which is where I'm sure you were trying to lead). Unfortunately, the verbage was all wrong and I can't answer yes or no.

 

[Salty]

George - I'm sure you have heard the phrase "It lost something in the translation"

 

[George Antonios]

No translation is perfect

Then change your vote please.

 

[Salty]

Then change your vote please.

unable to do so!

 

[Baptist Believer]

Because Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
I'd say that's about as "necessary" as it gets.

Actually, you are advocating for a book-based religious system (like Islam) instead of a living faith. All of Gods words are not in the Bible, nor has God stopped speaking.

Jesus confronted religious leaders who were attacking Him and said, “You pore over the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is those very Scriptures that testify about Me; and yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.” — John 5:39-40

The Bible doesn’t save anyone, nor does having knowledge of the Bible transform one’s life. Long before there were any written scriptures, people were made right with God. For thousands of years, until the last 500 years or so, few people had ready access to the scriptures, yet God’s saving work and transformation continued unabated.

While the Bible is a great and wonderful gift that we should use to the fullest, it is not necessary. Just look back to Abraham — He believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness (Genesis 15:6).

 

[1689Dave]

Paul's the letter killeth is a reference to the Old Testament law.

The Law permeates the NT in its spiritual application. Particularly the Sermon on the Mount which forms the basis of NT ethics. But remains hidden to the literalists whom God blinded just as as Jesus mentioned. Dispies proved this in their Scofield notes when first published. They said the Sermon was for Jews in the millennium. Which is Phariseeism, not Christianity.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

The Law permeates the NT in its spiritual application. Particularly the Sermon on the Mount which forms the basis of NT ethics. But remains hidden to the literalists whom God blinded just as Jesus mentioned. Dispies proved this in their Scofield notes when first published. They said the Sermon was for Jews in the millennium. Which is Phariseeism, not Christianity.

I can remember what B. Myron Cedarholm, late President of Maranatha Baptist Bible College (now Maranatha Baptist University) said about his Scofield Bible. "I read it from the top-down not from the bottom up."

 

[robycop3]

God's word says to turn the other cheek, and leave off strife before it be meddled with...
To do our best to be free of offense towards both God and men, and to do good to all men, especially those who are of the household of faith.

I have a position...

But what does it matter, roby?
At the end of the day it's all politics anyway, and I'm learning the hard way to stay out of the mosh-pit.

In fact,
I'm learning to physically avoid most people who profess Christ ( and if I do engage them, to either keep things light, or to be discrete and keep my doctrines to myself ), simply because I've learned through long experience that no two professing believers can agree on any three things with any sort of consistency.

On forums,
I'm learning to simply state what I believe, perhaps try to convince someone with the Scriptures, and then quietly take my leave once I see it going badly.

I agree, but it does no good to continue to speak out ( among the same group of people ) for or against something,
especially if there is no resolution in sight.

That said,
I think that from here on out, I'll simply state my position and let those who enjoy shredding people, do so.

They can then explain to the Lord ( when they see Him ), why they enjoyed continually ripping people apart in print ( or in spoken words ),
and why they flippantly disregarded his commandments regarding the personal conduct of believers in Jesus Christ, by tossing them into the proverbial garbage can without so much as a second thought.


Good afternoon to you.

Jesus did NOT say to turn the other cheek or a deaf ear to FALSE DOCTRINES. Part of ministry should be to point out false doctrines of faith/worship, along with why they're false. JESUS HIMSELF certainly did! He blasted some Pharisees for their false doctrines & man-made rules of worship, & thru Paul, blasted the Nicolaitans. Are we not to follow Jesus' example ?

While it takes the HOLY SPIRIT to turn one from a false doctrine to which he/she is in thrall, there are many lurkers & non-posters who read these discussions, so our words may keep a new or undecided Christian from falling for them. Satan has a "scratch" for every "itching ear".