For amillenial brothers....thoughts?

[Iconoclast]

DHK

There is nothing in Galatians 4 about a kingdom, much less a Millennial Kingdom.

DHK.....other then rev 20 there is nothing about a millennial kingdom anywhere in scripture. The passages that are used to describe God's kingdom do not contain that language so this kind of objection is quite foolish don't you think? there is nothing in gal 4 about the trinity, or being born again either, so are you saying these things are not taught????

This does not let you off the hook at all. Your theology does not have a place for the biblical understanding of these things...The heavenly Zion and Jerusalem destroys your whole view so you just seek to by-pass them.

In chapter 4 Paul gives an appeal not to turn to legalism, but rather to remember their relationship with Christ. He asks them to consider his relationship to them, and then ends with a Biblical illustration. There is nothing there about a kingdom.

You think you are on safe ground here as Paul was correcting error about the law and the church earlier....but this is now the third time you seek to avoid the obvious teaching being offered.

The twelve apostles--after having grown up in traditional synagogue teaching and Temple worship, and then being taught personally by the Lord Jesus Christ for three and a half years, and then witnessing the resurrection, and receiving his instructions just before he ascends into heaven which they also witness--you say they had a wrong understanding and you have a right one.

Until after Pentecost they did have a wrong understanding, many times as scripture is quite clear on that....
jn2:18-22

--I would rather believe the disciples on this one, not you. Their words also became inscripurated as the inspired words of God. Yours are not.

The thing is....I do believe the disciples on this and you evidently do not:laugh:

You can make the Bible say anything you want.

Or you can believe what it says despite your dispensational calendar.

Actually the allegory fits just as well this way:
Jesus was 30 years old when he began his ministry, and he was tempted by the devil for 40 days and 40 nights. The numbers fit don't they. But Christ was certainly not reigning.

I really am coming to believe you have no understanding on these things.

You really have to string these scriptures together to make them say anything.

There are bible themes or threads that run through scripture .You wrongly divide and fragment these threads all the time.

The only covenant he makes with believers is the personal relationship he has with each of us.
Otherwise his covenants are with Israel, as Paul said they were.
Words have meanings

.

You have no idea about the Covenants in scripture or you would not make such a foolish statement. What were gentiles "grafted into"?

eph 2:11-15...read the clear teaching then tell me how you can make such a statement as you have???

The very fact that the Lord mentions "thousand" six times in seven verses disproves any idea of this being symbolic "the thousand years" is not symbolic.

This makes no sense....that it is mentioned 6x has nothing to do with if it is literal or a symbolic time period....nothing.

 

[DHK]

DHK

DHK.....other then rev 20 there is nothing about a millennial kingdom anywhere in scripture. The passages that are used to describe God's kingdom do not contain that language so this kind of objection is quite foolish don't you think? there is nothing in gal 4 about the trinity, or being born again either, so are you saying these things are not taught????

Revelation 20:1-7 gives us an exact time period. There are literally hundreds of other scriptures that promise a coming kingdom of a definite period. It is called the Millennial Kingdom because John has added that information for us. It is foolish to spiritualize this entire passage when the Lord never meant it to be so. Why make it an allegory when it was never intended to be that way? Simple faith in the words of God is always the best way to go.

This does not let you off the hook at all. Your theology does not have a place for the biblical understanding of these things...The heavenly Zion and Jerusalem destroys your whole view so you just seek to by-pass them.

What does the Scripture have to say about an earthly physical kingdom to come, besides the fact that John tells it will be a thousand years in length.
First, let's consider the length, and why that thousand year kingdom is so plausible.

Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
--Note well that in heaven there is only one KING. This is on the earth. On the earth, the KING, the God of heaven, will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed. It shall not be left to other people (this can't apply to heaven). It will break in pieces and consume all the other kingdoms. Christ's future Millennial Kingdom will bring all other kingdoms or nations into subjection.

Daniel 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
--Again, this is a kingdom that is on the earth. All people, nations and languages shall serve the Lord. This time it says it is an everlasting dominion, and it will never be destroyed. How is that possible?
There will be a thousand year Kingdom on this earth.
Then there will be the Great White Throne Judgment.
After that the Lord will create a new heaven and a new earth. In a sense then Daniel seems to be teaching that there will be successive kingdoms, that one of them will be yet in the future (Millennial), and that ultimately His Kingdom will last forever and ever.

John verifies this when he writes:
Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
It is reasonable to assume that there is continuity between the Millennial Kingdom and God's eternal Kingdom.

The angel said to Mary:
Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
--Christ will reign from the throne of David, from the earthly city of Jerusalem. Again, the reign on earth won't be forever. It will last a thousand years. But his reign, beginning at Jerusalem, will then be forever. It is Satan, the god of this world, that is now reigning in this world.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
--Christ is coming for his "elect," which in this context is Israel. They are scattered. They continue to immigrate back to Israel in large numbers. Even now he is "gathering his elect."

This passage speaks of the conversion of Israel:
Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
--Not in heaven, but on earth.

It will be a time of peace (unlike today)
Micah 4:2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.

Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.
18 And my people shall dwell in a peaceable habitation, and in sure dwellings, and in quiet resting places;
--righteousness and peace; unlike today.

There will be no poverty there:
Amos 9:13 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.
14 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.
--This is not heaven; it is an earthly scene.

It will be a time of righteousness:
Psalms 24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.

And then we have this beautiful passage in Isaiah that not only refers to his first coming but also his second describing his rule on earth as King:
Isaiah 9:3 Thou hast multiplied the nation, and not increased the joy: they joy before thee according to the joy in harvest, and as men rejoice when they divide the spoil.
4 For thou hast broken the yoke of his burden, and the staff of his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, as in the day of Midian.
5 For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire.
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

But those are just a very few verses that describe the Millennial Kingdom, just a fraction of many verses that describe this glorious time when Christ will come for the Jewish nation, and defeat her enemies, and then establish his kingdom for a thousand years. His eternal kingdom will be established after that time.

You think you are on safe ground here as Paul was correcting error about the law and the church earlier....but this is now the third time you seek to avoid the obvious teaching being offered.

There is no obvious teaching of a kingdom in Gal.4.

Until after Pentecost they did have a wrong understanding, many times as scripture is quite clear on that....

Before the cross they misunderstood the cross--his death, burial and resurrection. All Jews, Pharisees, disciples, etc. have always understood the Kingdom to be physical, as the OT describes it, as I have shown you from Scriptures.

The thing is....I do believe the disciples on this and you evidently do not

Apparently not. Remember the disciples were rebuked about dwelling on the kingdom. But Jesus did not deny that the kingdom would come. There indeed would be a coming kingdom, but it was not their business to know when.

I really am coming to believe you have no understanding on these things.

More than you think. One who takes an allegorical approach to the Scriptures can make the Bible say anything they want it to say as I demonstrated to you in my last post.

 

[DHK]

There are bible themes or threads that run through scripture .You wrongly divide and fragment these threads all the time.

Those are man's themes. They are not God's themes.
Information may seem to be useful, but not necessarily "bilbical," for example:

The Old Testament contains 592,493 words, 23,214 verses, 929 chapters, and 39 books. The New Testament contains 181,253 words, 7,959 verses, 260 chapters and 27 books. The total for Old and New Testament, 773,746 words, 31,173 verses, 1,189 chapters and 66 books.
--Like your allegories and spiritualization of the Bible, the above is information about the Bible, and is interesting. That is as far as it goes. It is information gathered by man. Allegories in the Bible are ideas gathered by man. That doesn't make them inspired. Only the words of Scripture themselves are inspired, not the ideas that man reads into them.

You have no idea about the Covenants in scripture or you would not make such a foolish statement. What were gentiles "grafted into"?

Into Christ. Read John 15.

eph 2:11-15...read the clear teaching then tell me how you can make such a statement as you have???

This is written to the local church at Ephesus and is speaking of the unity of the church. The mystery is how they, both Jews and Gentiles, are now one in Christ. Your problem is that you ignore this context.

This makes no sense....that it is mentioned 6x has nothing to do with if it is literal or a symbolic time period....nothing.

It is very important. Words have meaning. You ignore the meaning of these words and try to make them mean something other than their intended meaning because it doesn't fit with your theology. You must therefore throw away the word. It messes you up.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

I answered this but evidently it did not post...I will try again-

Revelation 20:1-7 gives us an exact time period.

The term thousand years is used 6x ...only here, no where else.

There are literally hundreds of other scriptures that promise a coming kingdom

they looked forward to the Kingdom coming to earth with the throne being in heaven....the language here in acts 3 is clear;
19 reform ye, therefore, and turn back, for your sins being blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,

20 and He may send Jesus Christ who before hath been preached to you,

21 whom it behoveth heaven, indeed, to receive till times of a restitution of all things, of which God spake through the mouth of all His holy prophets from the age.
22 `For Moses, indeed, unto the fathers said -- A prophet to you shall the Lord your God raise up out of your brethren, like to me; him shall ye hear in all things, as many as he may speak unto you;

23 and it shall be, every soul that may not hear that prophet shall be utterly destroyed out of the people;

24 and also all the prophets from Samuel and those following in order, as many as spake, did also foretell of these days.

25 `Ye are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant that God made unto our fathers, saying unto Abraham: And in thy seed shall be blessed all the families of the earth;

26 to you first, God, having raised up His child Jesus, did send him, blessing you, in the turning away of each one from your evil ways.'

of a definite period.

most of the ot prophecies spoke of the eternal nature of the kingdom...you cannot show this "definite period" of time anywhere.

It is foolish to spiritualize this entire passage when the Lord never meant it to be so.

It is never foolish to try and understand what God wants us to.

Why make it an allegory when it was never intended to be that way? Simple faith in the words of God is always the best way to go.

I will show you using one of the verses you yourself offered how it is you who are missing what God has said....you posted this as an example of something yet future...when the Apostles spoke of it as already going on-

you said;

There will be no poverty there:
Amos 9:13 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.
14 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.
--This is not heaven; it is an earthly scene

Agreed..it is an earthly scene because of the heavenly reign as the Apostles quote the part you did not-

13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:

14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

The passage is speaking of the gospel going worldwide and the elect gentiles coming to faith since the apostolic days...it has already begun, unlike your speculation would have it some future time.

 

[DHK]

DHK

I answered this but evidently it did not post...I will try again-

The term thousand years is used 6x ...only here, no where else.

And your point? If it was used one time I would believe it. But it is used six times. It is used with authority. It is used in a very literal way separating two very different resurrections, labeling one of them blessed.

Your argument goes like this:
Here is the only place in scripture that a clear definition of the trinity is found:
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
--Since this is the only time such a clear and concise definition of the trinity is stated, (and in such a spurious text), we should not believe in it no matter how many other texts support it.
That, Icon, is your exact reasoning.

they looked forward to the Kingdom coming to earth with the throne being in heaven....the language here in acts 3 is clear;
19 reform ye, therefore, and turn back, for your sins being blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,

20 and He may send Jesus Christ who before hath been preached to you,

21 whom it behoveth heaven, indeed, to receive till times of a restitution of all things, of which God spake through the mouth of all His holy prophets from the age.
22 For Moses, indeed, unto the fathers said -- A prophet to you shall the Lord your God raise up out of your brethren, like to me; him shall ye hear in all things, as many as he may speak unto you;

23 and it shall be, every soul that may not hear that prophet shall be utterly destroyed out of the people;

24 and also all the prophets from Samuel and those following in order, as many as spake, did also foretell of these days.

25 `Ye are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant that God made unto our fathers, saying unto Abraham: And in thy seed shall be blessed all the families of the earth;

26 to you first, God, having raised up His child Jesus, did send him, blessing you, in the turning away of each one from your evil ways.'

Find one scripture where David's throne is in heaven.
"The times of refreshing" is a definite period of time on earth, not in heaven.
"A restitution of all things" refers to the curse being lifted off this earth and the earth being restored to its original beauty. That will happen in the Millennial Kingdom. Think about the meaning of the word, Icon. Heaven cannot be "restored." It was never broken.

Acts 3:21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God spoke long ago by the mouth of his holy prophets. (WEB)
--God, through his prophets spoke of the restoration of this earth long ago. He would restore it much like its original condition by lifting the curse. It will be called the Millennial Kingdom.

Romans 8:19 For the creation waits with eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed.

20 For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but because of him who subjected it, in hope

21 that the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of decay into the liberty of the glory of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now.

23 Not only so, but ourselves also, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for adoption, the redemption of our body.
--Not only do we wait for the redemption of our bodies (which happens when Christ comes again, but the whole creation waits for His Coming, which at that time the earth will be restored to its original state, at least for a period of time.
After that the Lord will destroy this earth and create a new heaven and a new earth. Therefore we know it is of a definite period of time.

most of the ot prophecies spoke of the eternal nature of the kingdom...you cannot show this "definite period" of time anywhere.

I just did.
Scripture after scripture points to a kingdom on this earth.
Then Peter with all the clarity one needs says:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
--Note: Christ is coming suddenly as a thief in the night.
Then there will be judgment on this earth such as has never been seen.
Eventually this earth and this heaven will be destroyed.
Eventually a new heaven and a new earth will be created.
Note also that is a very sketchy outline with other events happening inbetween. Thus when Christ comes to set up his kingdom on earth it will last for a thousand years. Then the wicked will stand before God. Then the earth and heaven will be destroyed and the Lord will create a new earth and a new heaven. The Scriptures are clear on this both in Daniel and in Revelation 11 which I have previously quoted to you.

It is never foolish to try and understand what God wants us to.

It is not trying to understand scripture when you just spiritualize it away. The J.W.'s do that with the resurrection. They say it never happened. They allegorize scripture to make it say that. They say it was just his spirit that was resurrected. In such a way words have no meaning. You can make them say or mean anything you want them to say. That is not trying to understand scripture.

I will show you using one of the verses you yourself offered how it is you who are missing what God has said....you posted this as an example of something yet future...when the Apostles spoke of it as already going on-

you said;

Agreed..it is an earthly scene because of the heavenly reign

Here is what I said:

15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.
--This is not heaven; it is an earthly scene

There is no "because of the heavenly reign." Nonsense. Jesus is reigning on earth in this scene. "I will plant them upon their earth. The Lord said that. And it will happen when Christ comes again.

as the Apostles quote the part you did not-

13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:

14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

The passage is speaking of the gospel going worldwide and the elect gentiles coming to faith since the apostolic days...it has already begun, unlike your speculation would have it some future time.

Don't falsely accuse. I quoted directly from the book of Amos. You have taken a passage from the book of Acts which has nothing to do with what I quoted. That is a deliberate misrepresentation.

First, there was a partial fulfillment at Pentecost.
Now be honest: Did these things happen at or even near the time of Pentecost:

16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Did the Lord return and rebuild the tabernacle of David? NO!
Did the residue of men seek after the Lord? NO!
Did ALL the Gentiles upon whom name is called saith, Lord who doeth these things? NO!

These things never took place. They will take place in the future--the future Millennial Kingdom.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

And your point? If it was used one time I would believe it.

My point would be that this term is used in the most symbolic book of the bible.

Your argument goes like this:

my argument would be...you claimed there were hundreds of texts with time texts...I am showing there is one chapter in the most suymbolic book that uses this term...


When the bible speaks of kingdom...it does not say..."millennial kingdom" as you insert everywhere. that is misleading.

Find one scripture where David's throne is in heaven.

29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

"The times of refreshing" is a definite period of time on earth, not in heaven.
"A restitution of all things" refers to the curse being lifted off this earth and the earth being restored to its original beauty. That will happen in the Millennial Kingdom. Think about the meaning of the word, Icon. Heaven cannot be "restored." It was never broken.

STRAWMAN ALERT.....where in any of my 8 thousand posts did I say heaven was broken?
Where did I say that God's reign is only in heaven?

let's be clear. satan does not reign as you say.Jesus reigns right now in heaven and on earth .He rules heaven and earth from the heavenly throne.

Stop your strawman tactics.

Acts 3:21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God spoke long ago by the mouth of his holy prophets. (WEB)
--God, through his prophets spoke of the restoration of this earth long ago. He would restore it much like its original condition by lifting the curse. It will be called the Millennial Kingdom.

that is what postmillennial men believe is going on as the kingdom expands. You state this like it is a new idea:laugh:

Scripture after scripture points to a kingdom on this earth.
Thus when Christ comes to set up his kingdom on earth it will last for a thousand years.

Nothing in revelation 20 says that reign is with Jesus ...on the earth.

It is not trying to understand scripture when you just spiritualize it away.

Then again spiritual things do have a spiritual understanding...you are looking to carnalize the scripture.

[

I]15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.
--This is not heaven; it is an earthly scene [/I]

no one said it was...you are struggling mightitly to answer questions no one asked about.:thumbsup:

There is no "because of the heavenly reign." Nonsense.

this is bible truth, not nonsense.

Jesus is reigning on earth in this scene. "I will plant them upon their earth. The Lord said that.

Amos 9 does not say Jesus is on the earth here....where do you see that?

And it will happen when Christ comes again.

the apostles say it has already been happening

Don't falsely accuse. I quoted directly from the book of Amos. You have taken a passage from the book of Acts which has nothing to do with what I quoted. That is a deliberate misrepresentation

.
You did quote from Amos 9...but left off that part that the Holy Spirit have James explain to us....

First, there was a partial fulfillment at Pentecost.

He does not say there was a partial fulfillment ...he said Amos spoke of this , that is the gentiles coming in ,in droves, the plowman overtaking the reaper.

Now be honest: Did these things happen at or even near the time of Pentecost:

16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Did the Lord return and rebuild the tabernacle of David? NO!
Did the residue of men seek after the Lord? NO!
Did ALL the Gentiles upon whom name is called saith, Lord who doeth these things? NO!

These things never took place. They will take place in the future--the future Millennial Kingdom.

They did DHK...not in the carnal way you want but acts 15 is clear:
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:

14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
The passage is speaking of the gospel going worldwide and the elect gentiles coming to faith since the apostolic days...it has already begun, unlike your speculation would have it some future time.

Opps..looks like the Jerusalem council...'spiritualized the passage":wavey::laugh:

 

[DHK]

DHK

My point would be that this term is used in the most symbolic book of the bible.

And you are wrong. The Book of Revelation is not a "symbolic book."
It is an "apocalyptic book," which contains some symbolism. There is nothing symbolic about the word "thousand," in this apocalyptic book.
An example of a "symbolic book" would be an allegory such as John Bunyan's "Pilgrim's Progress," which symbolizes what the life of a Christian should be.
That is not what the Book of Revelation is. It is apocalyptic; its truth is the inspired Word of God; it can be taken literally much of the time, and there is no reason not to take it literally. IOW, John did see Jesus in chapter one, and he wrote a description of Him. There were seven actual churches, which are described in chapters two and three. They are not symbolic of ages. They are real churches. He gives us actual glimpses into heaven which he describes to the best of his ability with the vocabulary that he has and translated into the vocabulary we have, both of which fall far short of what any man would be able to describe in their own human language.

The Apostle Paul had the same problem. Young's translation:
2 Corinthians 12:4 that he was caught away to the paradise, and heard unutterable sayings, that it is not possible for man to speak.
--Whatever Paul saw in heaven it was not possible for him to describe. He didn't have the words, the vocabulary. It was not as the KJV implies--against the law, but rather "inutterable." He couldn't say because the words were outside of his vocabulary. How can a finite man describe an infinite God?!

my argument would be...you claimed there were hundreds of texts with time texts...I am showing there is one chapter in the most suymbolic book that uses this term...

You don't have an argument; you don't even have a so-called "symbolic book." You only have an excuse.

When the bible speaks of kingdom...it does not say..."millennial kingdom" as you insert everywhere. that is misleading.

Every scholar throughout history has recognized the millennial kingdom.
Start with the ECF who recognized Chiliasm (Millennialism.)
Then the Postmillennialists, Amillennialists, Premillennialists, etc.
Whether you take a stand against, before or after the Millennium, you are recognizing that there is one. An atheist recognizes there is a God, simply by his unbelief in one. A-theist. No-God. That is his belief. It doesn't mean that God doesn't exist, it simply means that he doesn't believe in the God that does exist.
Likewise an a-millennialist holds to the belief that there is no millennium. That doesn't negate the fact that there is a millennium, simply that he doesn't believe in the existence of one.

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
--Satan is bound for a "thousand" years. Look at what the Greek word for "thousand" is
χιλιοι chilioi This is the same Greek word from which Chiliasm comes from.
The ECF believed in Chiliasm, which means Millennialism. So, yes, the word is used in the Bible. It is used six times in seven verses.
Then I haven't checked all the contexts of the word "thousand" since the word is used 395 times in the Bible. But one would think that these six times that it is used in connection with both the resurrection and the Kingdom would be enough evidence to convince a person.

STRAWMAN ALERT.....where in any of my 8 thousand posts did I say heaven was broken?
Where did I say that God's reign is only in heaven?

let's be clear. satan does not reign as you say.Jesus reigns right now in heaven and on earth .He rules heaven and earth from the heavenly throne.

Stop your strawman tactics.

I don't have strawman tactics. I have been answering your scripture as you have been posting it. You stated, referring to scripture "that the times of refreshing,...the time of restitution or restoration must come," And then you applied that to the reign of Christ in heaven. Heaven doesn't need restoring. Heaven was never broken in the first place.
Hence it is obvious that those verses speak of the Millennial Kingdom here on earth. No strawman here. If you want to use scripture stick to the context otherwise you end up with ridiculous applications and interpretations.

Furthermore, Paul did not write scripture for the good of his health; he wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit for the benefit of us all.
He says:
2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
--Satan is the god of this world. He is reigning over this world today. If you could meet Paul and ask him he would tell you that. In lieu of that you should read his epistles.

that is what postmillennial men believe is going on as the kingdom expands. You state this like it is a new idea:

At least post-mils believe there is a millennium.

Nothing in revelation 20 says that reign is with Jesus ...on the earth.

It is an apocalyptic book, and mostly literal, and mostly chronological.
Given those facts we go back and look at chapter 19. In chapter 19 Jesus "comes again," that is he comes from heaven to earth, and his armies come with him. He destroys the enemies of Israel. The beast and the false prophet are thrown into the Lake of Fire. The Millennial Kingdom is established. Satan has one more rebellion which is quickly put down, and then after that there is the Great White Throne Judgement, and then chapter 20.

Then again spiritual things do have a spiritual understanding...you are looking to carnalize the scripture.

Scripture is spiritual; scripture has meaning and understanding which is not to be allegorized away just because one does not understand it.

no one said it was...you are struggling mightitly to answer questions no one asked about.

You are right. I wasn't answering a question. I gave scripture after scripture after scripture--too many for you to answer, all demonstrating that the Millennial Kingdom is still future; it is coming; it is physical and of a predetermined length of time. It is not in heaven. That is one of the scriptures I used. Why would you think I am struggling when I use scripture to demonstrate what I believe. Again:
15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.
--This is not heaven; it is an earthly scene

Amos 9 does not say Jesus is on the earth here....where do you see that?

All of Amos 9 speaks of the Kingdom on earth:
Amos 9:11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
--This is part of what Christ will do when he comes.

You did quote from Amos 9...but left off that part that the Holy Spirit have James explain to us....

I quoted from Amos 9, period! I did not look at any other book when I quoted from Amos 9. There is no conspiracy here.

He does not say there was a partial fulfillment ...he said Amos spoke of this , that is the gentiles coming in ,in droves, the plowman overtaking the reaper.

The only time, the only possible time that the things that Amos described will take place is in the future. They haven't taken place yet. That much is obvious. All the nations do not worship God. If you say they do, you are deceived.

I said:
Did the Lord return and rebuild the tabernacle of David? NO!
Did the residue of men seek after the Lord? NO!
Did ALL the Gentiles upon whom name is called saith, Lord who doeth these things? NO!

These things never took place. They will take place in the future--the future Millennial Kingdom.

They did DHK...not in the carnal way you want but acts 15 is clear:
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:

14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
The passage is speaking of the gospel going worldwide and the elect gentiles coming to faith since the apostolic days...it has already begun, unlike your speculation would have it some future time.

Opps..looks like the Jerusalem council...'spiritualized the passage"

And I will say again:
Did the Lord return and rebuild the tabernacle of David? NO!
Did the residue of men seek after the Lord? NO!
Did ALL the Gentiles upon whom name is called saith, Lord who doeth these things? NO!

These things never took place. They will take place in the future--the future Millennial Kingdom.

No, you are the one spiritualizing scripture, and you are making nonsense out of it.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.
--This is not heaven; it is an earthly scene

yes it is:thumbs:

All of Amos 9 speaks of the Kingdom on earth:
Amos 9:11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:

yes it does...

--

This is part of what Christ will do when he comes.

yes..he did it when he came the first time

I quoted from Amos 9, period! I did not look at any other book when I quoted from Amos 9. There is no conspiracy here.

The only time, the only possible time that the things that Amos described will take place is in the future. They haven't taken place yet. That much is obvious. All the nations do not worship God. If you say they do, you are deceived.

here is some eye salve for you from my friend Matthew Henry....enjoy;

3. He confirms this with a quotation out of the Old Testament: he could not prove the calling of the Gentiles by a vision, as Peter could, nor by miracles wrought by his hand, as Paul and Barnabas could, but he would prove that it was foretold in the Old Testament, and therefore it must be fulfilled, v. 15. To this agree the words of the prophets; most of the Old-Testament prophets spoke more or less of the calling in of the Gentiles, even Moses himself, Rom. 10:19. It was the general expectation of the pious Jews that the Messiah should be a light to enlighten the Gentiles (Lu. 2:32): but James waives the more illustrious prophecies of this, and pitches upon one that seemed more obscure: It is written, Amos 9:11, 12, where is foretold,
(1.) The setting up of the kingdom of the Messiah (v. 16): I will raise up the tabernacle of David, that is fallen. The covenant was made with David and his seed; but the house and family of David are here called his tabernacle, because David in his beginning was a shepherd, and dwelt in tents, and his house, that had been as a stately palace, had become a mean and despicable tabernacle, reduced in a manner to its small beginning. This tabernacle was ruined and fallen down;

there had not been for many ages a king of the house of David; the sceptre had departed from Judah, the royal family was sunk and buried in obscurity, and, as it should seem, not enquired after. But God will return, and will build it again, raise it out of its ruins, a phoenix out of its ashes; and this was now lately fulfilled, when our Lord Jesus was raised out of that family, had the throne of his father David given him, with a promise that he should reign over the house of Jacob for ever, Lu. 1:32, 33.

And, when the tabernacle of David was thus rebuilt in Christ, all the rest of it was, not many years after, wholly extirpated and cut off, as was also the nation of the Jews itself, and all their genealogies were lost. The church of Christ may be called the tabernacle of David.

This may sometimes be brought very low, and may seem to be in ruins, but it shall be built again, its withering interests shall revive; it is cast down, but not destroyed: even dry bones are made to live.

(2.) The bringing in of the Gentiles as the effect and consequence of this (v. 17): That the residue of men might seek after the Lord; not the Jews only, who thought they had the monopoly of the tabernacle of David, but the residue of men, such as had hitherto been left out of the pale of the visible church; they must now, upon this re-edifying of the tabernacle of David, be brought to seek after the Lord, and to enquire how they may obtain his favour.


When David's tabernacle is set up, they shall seek the Lord their God, and David their king, Hos. 3:5; Jer. 30:9. Then Israel shall possess the remnant of Edom (so it is in the Hebrew); but the Jews called all the Gentiles Edomites, and therefore the Septuagint leave out the particular mention of Edom, and read it just as it is here, that the residue of men might seek (James here adds, after the Lord), and all the Gentiles, or heathen, upon whom my name is called. The Jews were for many ages so peculiarly favoured that the residue of men seemed neglected;

but now God will have an eye to them, and his name shall be called upon by the Gentiles; his name shall be declared and published among them, and they shall be brought both to know his name and to call upon it:


they shall call themselves the people of God, and he shall call them so; and thus, by consent of both parties, his name is called upon them. This promise we may depend upon the fulfilling of in its season; and now it begins to be fulfilled, for it is added, saith the Lord, who doeth this; who doeth all these things (so the Seventy); and the apostle here: he saith it who doeth it, who therefore said it because he was determined to do it; and who therefore does it because he hath said it; for though with us saying and doing are two things they are not so with God. The uniting of Jews and Gentiles in one body, and all those things that were done in order to it, which were here foretold, were, [1.] What God did: This was the Lord's doing, whatever instruments were employed in it: and, [2.] It was what God delighted in, and was well pleased with; for he is the God of the Gentiles, as well as the Jews, and it is his honour to be rich in mercy to all that call upon him.

DHk...
You ignore what the scriptures clearly teach. You put it off into the future when the passage ,the whole chapter is dealing with the gentiles coming into the kingdom in droves.....Amos 9 is and has been being fulfilled since the beginning.. If you take all you say is going to happen in the future and understand that it has already began...you would get it.:thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

here is jamisen faucet and brown;

15. to this agree the words of the prophets--generally; but those of Amos (Am 9:11) are specified (nearly as in the Septuagint version). The point of the passage lies in the predicted purpose of God, under the new economy, that "the heathen" or "Gentiles" should be "called by His name," or have "His name called upon them." By the "building again of the fallen tabernacle of David," or restoring its decayed splendor, is meant that only and glorious recovery which it was to experience under David's "son and Lord."

18, 19. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning--He who announced these things so long before, and He who had now brought them to pass, were one and the same; so that they were no novelty.

19. Wherefore, my sentence--or "judgment."
is, that we trouble not--with Jewish obligations.
them which from among the Gentiles are turned to God--rather, "are turning." The work is regarded as in progress, and indeed was rapidly advancing.

from Mcgarvey and pendelton;
The whole argument turns upon the meaning of the expression "tabernacle of David." If the metaphorical word tabernacle here means the Jewish Church, the argument would have force. But the Mosaic institution never sustained such a relation to David that it could, with propriety, be styled the "tabernacle of David." If such had been the reference, the expression would undoubtedly have been, the tabernacle of Moses, which would have been unambiguous. But David was a king, and had a promise from God, that his "throne should be established forever;"{8} that there should not fail him a man on the throne of Israel.{9} This promise God confirmed with an oath, saying, "I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn to David my servant, Thy seed will I establish forever, and build up thy throne to all generations."{10} According to the apparent meaning of this promise, it had long since failed; for it had been many generations since a descendant of David had occupied his throne. It was during this period, in which the royal house of David was in ruins, that Amos uttered the prophesy, "I will return, and build again the tabernacle of David which is fallen down; I will build again the ruins thereof, and set it upright." The term tabernacle, therefore, must be put for the family who dwell in the tabernacle, and the reconstruction of it the re-establishment of the royal dignity which the family had lost. Hence, when the birth of Jesus was announced to Mary, the angel said: "The Lord shall give to him the throne of his father David, and he shall reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there shall be no end."{11} Thus, the promise, when properly understood, is seen to refer neither to a continuous line of Jewish kings, descended from David, nor to a reconstruction of the Jewish Church, but to the perpetual reign of Jesus, the "seed of David according to the flesh."{12} When, therefore, Jesus sat down upon his throne in heaven, the tabernacle of David was rebuilt, and now, by the labors of Peter, Barnabas, and Paul, the remainder of the prophesy of Amos was being fulfilled, by the extension of his kingdom among the Gentiles.

Geneva study bible;

15:14 7 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

(7) James confirms the calling of the Gentiles out of the word of God, in this agreeing with Peter.

15:18 h Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

(h) And therefore nothing comes to pass by chance, but only by God's appointment.

15:19 8 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

 

[DHK]

Icon,
You haven't said much except to quote from Matthew Henry, Jamieson, Faucett, and Brown, and then from Mcgarvey. You actually didn't say much on your own account except when you said:

DHk...
You ignore what the scriptures clearly teach. You put it off into the future when the passage ,the whole chapter is dealing with the gentiles coming into the kingdom in droves.....Amos 9 is and has been being fulfilled since the beginning.. If you take all you say is going to happen in the future and understand that it has already began...you would get it

And clearly you are wrong.

The passage in question is Amos 9:11-15. Of course you quote those that are either amill or postmill and have interpreted that portion of scripture according to their own bias. That doesn't make them right.

Amo 9:11-15
(11) In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
(12) That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.
(13) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.
(14) And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
(15) And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.

This passage is primarily about Israel, and God's promises to Israel.
After all God's judgments are past, when the nation has received full punishment for her sins, the Lord will move in mercy and refresh His people.
God will restore David's kingdom over both the North and the South, and through it he will bless all nations of the earth. He will reverse the covenant curses and bring unprecedented prosperity to the land. Dispersed Israel will be returned to her land, there to dwell securely and enjoy its goodness. Then He who has always claimed them as "My people (7:8, 15; 8:2; 9:10; Zech.8:8) will once again take the title "your God." (Walvoord and Zuck, Bible Knowledge Commentary)

Amo 9:11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
--In that day (Isa.4:2; Mic.4:6; 5:10) God will restore David's fallen tent.
Previous references in Amos to "that day" had spoken of it as a day of darkness and destruction (Amos 2:16; 3:14; 5:18-20; 8:3,9,11,13). But when Israel's ordeal is finally over, "that day" the day of her renewal.

God will reestablish David's "tent" over both the Northern and Southern Kingdoms. A "tent" (lit. "booth") or awning was made by setting up a simple frame and spreading branches over it. Its primary purpose was to shelter those under it, whether troops in the field (2Sam.11:11), a watchman at a post (Jonah 4:5), or pilgrims at the Feast of Booths (also called the Feast of Tabernacles). David's dynasty, which had been a protective canopy over the people of Israel, had "fallen" with the great schism of the 10 Northern tribes from the 2 Southern tribes (1Kings 12). This booth had been broken in two. But God promised to unite the two kingdoms once again under Davidic rule (Jer.30:3-10; Ez.37:15-28; Hos.3:4-5). He will restore the sheltering tent, repair its broken places, building it as it used to be. God will carry out His good promise to David that He would raise up a Descendant after him and establish His rule forever (2Sam.7:11-16, 25-29).

Amo 9:12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.
--The united kingdom under its Davidic King will then become the source of blessing to all Gentiles. Edom, a nation perpetually hostile toward God's people (Num.20:14-21; Ps.137:7; Oba.1), and therefore representative of all Israel's enemies, will become a sharer in the promises to David: Israel will possess the remnant of Edom (Obad.19). In fact, all... nations will be brought under the dominion of the Davidic King, for they too bear God's name. To "bear someone's name" meant to be under the suzerainty and protection of that individual (Deu.28:9-10; 2Sam.12:26-28; Dan.9:18-19). All nations belong to God and therefore will be included in the blessings of the future kingdom.

From the beginning, God's plan has been to provide salvation for the Gentile nations. His promise to Abraham was that through his descendants "all peoples on earth" will be blessed (Gen.12:3; cf. Gen.18:18; 22:17-18; 26:3-4; 28:13-14).
Through Isaiah God continually affirmed that a united Israel God continually affirmed that a united Israel under its Davidic King, the Messiah, will bring light, justice, and full knowledge of the Lord to all nations on the earth (Isa.9:1-7; 11:1-13; 42:1-7; 45:22-25; 49:5-7; 55:1-5).
When God restores the kingdom (the Millennium) under David's Son, both Jews and Gentiles will bear the name of the Lord.

At the Jerusalem Council, James cited Amos 9:11-12 as proof that the Gentiles of his day need not be circumcised and live as Jews in order to be saved (Acts 15:1-20). James was aware that Israel's judgments were not yet over (cf. the Lord's statements regarding the complete destruction of the temple and renewed persecution and death, Mat.24:1-22; Luke 21:5-24, and that the restoration had not yet begun; cf. Acts 1:6-7).
But James knew also from Amos' succinct statement and from extended passages in other prophets (cf. "prophets" in Acts 15:15; also note Isa.42:6; 60:3; Mal.1:11) that when the promised kingdom would come, the Gentiles will share in it as Gentiles and not as quasi-Jews. Since this was God's millennial purpose, James concluded that the church should not require Gentiles to relinquish their identity and live as Jews. James was not saying the church fulfills the promises to Israel in Amos 9:11-12. He was saying that since Gentiles will be saved in the yet-to-come Millennium, they need not become Jews in the Church Age. (Walvoord and Zuck, Bible Knowledge Commentary.)

 

[Aaron]

Having left behind Dispensational error...I thought by default I must then be Amillennial.
Then I found out that some of the men I was reading were in fact postmillennial. I thought of myself as Optimistic Amillennial in that the gospel always accomplishes God's purpose in time.

Here is a short article on this in between position as I continue to look into this issue. What are your thoughts and scriptures that speak to this:thumbs:

PESSIMISM AND AMILLENNIALISM

Amillennialism October 30, 2013 Comments: 3


PMT 2013-020 by Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr.

Pessimism OptimismSome amillennialists complain that postmillennialists wrongly categorize them as “pessimistic.” They generally reject this evaluation for two reasons: (1) It is negative sounding in itself, and (2) it overlooks the fact that they argue that ultimately Christ and his people win the victory at the end of history. Still other amillennialists deny this designation because they call themselves “optimistic amillennialists.”

I don't think it could be said I reject that evaluation. I think the evaluation irrelevant. Look who's doing the evaluating.

First, as a system of gospel proclamation amillennialism teaches that the gospel of Christ will not exercise any majority influence in the world before Christ’s return. They allow that Christianity may enjoy flashes of revival and spurts of growth. Yet, by its very nature the amillennial system cannot allow that Christianity will become the dominant feature of human society and culture.

K. Pessimistic or not, is it true?

Second, as a system of historical understanding amillennialism, in fact, holds the Bible teaches there are prophetically determined, irresistible trends downward toward chaos in the outworking and development of history. Though some amillennialists understand the great tribulation in the Olivet Discourse as referring (correctly) to the Jewish War and the AD 70 destruction of the temple, their system necessarily demands a prophetically-determined collapse of society in history.

Again. So?

Third, as a system for the promotion of Christian discipleship amillennialism dissuades the Church from anticipating and laboring for wide-scale success in influencing the world for Christ during this age. In fact, this distinguishes amillennialism and postmillennialism.

This argument might hold weight with noncalvinists. For those who love God, the Gospel and his fellow man, there is no silencing them.

Regarding the question of so-called “optimistic amillennialists,” it seems to me that the verses an amillennialist would use to underscore his optimism are those that endorse a postmillennial perspective.

Only if one equates pragmatism and optimism.

Unless, of course, he is optimistic on grounds other than direct biblical revelation. Therefore, he should come out of the closet and be a postmillennialist.

Oooo. Sure this wasn't written by Scandal? Talk of begging the question.

Amillennialism is simply true. Some of the elect will suffer, others will receive power. That is how it has been for 2000 years.

 

[Iconoclast]

I don't think it could be said I reject that evaluation. I think the evaluation irrelevant. Look who's doing the evaluating.

K. Pessimistic or not, is it true?


Again. So?

This argument might hold weight with noncalvinists. For those who love God, the Gospel and his fellow man, there is no silencing them.

Only if one equates pragmatism and optimism.

Oooo. Sure this wasn't written by Scandal? Talk of begging the question.

Amillennialism is simply true. Some of the elect will suffer, others will receive power. That is how it has been for 2000 years.

Hello Aaron

What main text or texts has you convinced of the amill position?

David Engelsma wrote a defense of Amillennialism. ......I have read Hendrickson. ...Waldron. ..Cox......Hoekema....etc......I find much in common with that view....

I find more of a hands on and active serving with what we could call an outward focus....in society and world evangelism among the postmill writers.......they amill men seem more general and distant than the postmill men.

 

[Aaron]

Hello Aaron

What main text or texts has you convinced of the amill position?

David Engelsma wrote a defense of Amillennialism. ......I have read Hendrickson. ...Waldron. ..Cox......Hoekema....etc......I find much in common with that view.....

The main texts that have convinced me (of at least the error of Dispensationalism) are the Scriptures. Knowing that the types and shadows of the law are fulfilled, and that to rebuild them in the form of the temple, priesthood and offerings would be antichrist (Gal. 2:18, Heb. 10).

So also of Postmillennialism.

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. - Mat 24:22

And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. - Mar 13:20

I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? - Luk 18:8 KJV​

But other than the Scriptures, my main influence was living among and interacting with Amills, and a chapter by Hoekema in The Meaning of the Millennium, and a book called More than Conquerers by William Hendricksen.

I find more of a hands on and active serving with what we could call an outward focus....in society and world evangelism among the postmill writers.......they amill men seem more general and distant than the postmill men

I think that is because they think their works are accomplishing something.

 

[Iconoclast]

Aaron

The main texts that have convinced me (of at least the error of Dispensationalism) are the Scriptures. Knowing that the types and shadows of the law are fulfilled, and that to rebuild them in the form of the temple, priesthood and offerings would be antichrist (Gal. 2:18, Heb. 10).

Agreed:wavey:
So also of Postmillennialism.

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. - Mat 24:22

And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. - Mar 13:20

I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? - Luk 18:8 KJV​

yes...I have seen these verses offered several times:wavey:

But other than the Scriptures, my main influence was living among and interacting with Amills, and a chapter by Hoekema in The Meaning of the Millennium, and a book called More than Conquerers by William Hendricksen.


Yes Hendricksen I found very helpful. also Sam Waldron on end times Made simple...Hoekema on the Bible and the future. I am okay with the amill position but I jst find the postmill more intense,

 

[PreachTony]

I find more of a hands on and active serving with what we could call an outward focus....in society and world evangelism among the postmill writers.......they amill men seem more general and distant than the postmill men.

Icon, can you provide a further explanation on this line? It might just be that it's still early in the morning-ish for me, but I'm not sure I'm catching what you're saying. I'm just wondering if I can provide a "amill" voice in the matter, seeing as I'm pretty staunchly amillennial. Thanks in advance.

 

[Greektim]

Aaron



Agreed:wavey:
So also of Postmillennialism.



yes...I have seen these verses offered several times:wavey:

But other than the Scriptures, my main influence was living among and interacting with Amills, and a chapter by Hoekema in The Meaning of the Millennium, and a book called More than Conquerers by William Hendricksen.


Yes Hendricksen I found very helpful. also Sam Waldron on end times Made simple...Hoekema on the Bible and the future. I am okay with the amill position but I jst find the postmill more intense,

Here is what I can appreciate about this post (and much of this discussion). At least, your eschatology has gone beyond the esoteric and reached a practical goal. I also find my Amillism extremely practical as to my mission in serving Jesus. Since we are really disagreeing on words in a confession, we can at least be thankful that such has not caused us to cease serving in Jesus' kingdom. This is the point of theology. I appreciate that here.

 

[Iconoclast]

Icon, can you provide a further explanation on this line? It might just be that it's still early in the morning-ish for me, but I'm not sure I'm catching what you're saying. I'm just wondering if I can provide a "amill" voice in the matter, seeing as I'm pretty staunchly amillennial. Thanks in advance.

The postmill look for the church to be active in the world occupying until Jesus comes and bring the kingdom rule to the earth.
They are not looking for the world to continue to get worse and worse and worse. They are looking for souls to be saved by the preaching of the gospel and then once the souls the saved then looking for those people to be actively obedient to the scripture.
As a consequence society will change they'll be Christians running for politics it will be Christians in the legislature there will be Christians in every walk of life who are really being Christians there really doing what scripture says to do

it will not be Christians getting the unsaved world to conform and to be Christianized.
it will be Christians really being active Christians church members really being members of the church really obeying the law of God in Christ


in most a millennial books they speak in general terms like the good win the bad lose Christ wins Satan loses its always general all general speaking when you read some of the postmill Puritans they sought the implement in their daily lives Kingdom living in Kingdom principles I think many church members say they do that today but in reality its more lip service and they just keep it in a general like I'm not robbing the bank today so I'm living a Christian life rather than positively obeying all lawful commands

 

[DHK]

the postmill look for the church to be active in the world occupying until Jesus comes and bring the kingdom rule to the earth.they are not looking for the world to continue to get worse and worse and worse than looking for souls to be saved by the preaching of the gospel and then once the souls the saved then looking for those people to be actively obedient to the scripture and as a consequence society will change they'll be Christians running for politics it will be Christians in the legislature there will be Christians in every walk of life who are really being Christians there really doing what scripture says to do

it will not be Christians getting the unsaved world to conform and to be Christianized.
it will be Christians really being active Christians church members really being members of the church really obeying the law of God in Christ


in most a millennial books they speak in general terms like the good win the bad lose Christ wins Satan loses yo its always general all general speaking when you read some of the postmill Puritans they sought the implement in their daily lives Kingdom living in Kingdom principles I think many church members say they do that today but in reality its more lip service and they just keep it in a general like I'm not robbing the bank today so I'm living a Christian life rather than positively obeying all lawful commands

The idealism of this position does not fit with the reality of the world.
Just a few years ago a regular poster on this board (but not here any more), described how the major religion of the southern part of Nigeria was Christian. She described that the evangelical arm of the Anglican Church had a strong foothold there and the gospel was being spread. Christianity was being spread. Now look at it. The truth now is that Christianity is being stamped out. Town after town is being run over by militant Muslims called the Boko Haram. What is happening is Genocide. The atrocities being committed in the name of Islam are horrific. The number of Christians are being decimated and many have fled to other countries. That is not what your view of Christianity teaches.

What was the legacy of William Carey? Is it even there any more?
What about Adoniram Judson in Burma, who not only translated the Burmese scriptures, but he introduced Christ to the Karen tribe, most of whom trusted Christ. Where are they now?

The influence of "Praying Hyde" or John Hyde, in NW India, which is now Pakistan is now almost completely lost, swallowed up in Islam.

The world is getting worse and worse and worse not better and better.
The Kingdom is not growing but shrinking.
Your view does not fit with reality.

 

[Iconoclast]

The idealism of this position does not fit with the reality of the world.
Just a few years ago a regular poster on this board (but not here any more), described how the major religion of the southern part of Nigeria was Christian. She described that the evangelical arm of the Anglican Church had a strong foothold there and the gospel was being spread. Christianity was being spread. Now look at it. The truth now is that Christianity is being stamped out. Town after town is being run over by militant Muslims called the Boko Haram. What is happening is Genocide. The atrocities being committed in the name of Islam are horrific. The number of Christians are being decimated and many have fled to other countries. That is not what your view of Christianity teaches.

What was the legacy of William Carey? Is it even there any more?
What about Adoniram Judson in Burma, who not only translated the Burmese scriptures, but he introduced Christ to the Karen tribe, most of whom trusted Christ. Where are they now?

The influence of "Praying Hyde" or John Hyde, in NW India, which is now Pakistan is now almost completely lost, swallowed up in Islam.

The world is getting worse and worse and worse not better and better.
The Kingdom is not growing but shrinking.
Your view does not fit with reality.

There are and can be setbacks in the progress of the kingdom. Islam is demonic. The tsunami that happened a few years ago wiped out many of the muslims who were persecuting Christians.
I do not look in the newspaper to find this teaching but the scripture;
psalm22
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

28 For the kingdom is the Lord's: and he is the governor among the nations.

29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

 

[PreachTony]

I would have to say that I can't see this world getting better. That's not just a generalized feeling, either. To me, it's evident that the world is getting worse. I'm not even talking about the natural disasters, I'm just talking about the general attitude of humanity. To think that this world is somehow getting better seems a bit blinded to the reality of the situation.

II Timothy 3:13-17
But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Christ warns of a falling away in the last days, and technically we've been in the last days ever since He ascended. As Peter wrote, "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, but is longsuffering to usward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." I've been led for many years to preach and teach that we're currently in a space of time I call "the longsuffering of God." This period of time is marked by our ability to continue to witness and preach the great works the Lord has wrought in our lives. As Christ said that no man knows the day or hour He will return, but the Father, I believe the Father's command is all that is keeping Christ from returning. (remember, I am an amillennialist)