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church mouse guy

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Actually both acknowledge that the bishop of Rome (pope) is the protos. There is no getting around it, as it is a historical fact.

Revenna Document ---> Ravenna Document - Wikipedia

Actual Text ---> The Ravenna Document

Even Luther acknowledged it...

"That the Roman Church is more honored by God than all others is not to be doubted. St, Peter and St. Paul, forty-six Popes, some hundreds of thousands of martyrs, have laid down their lives in its communion, having overcome Hell and the world; so that the eyes of God rest on the Roman church with special favor. Though nowadays everything is in a wretched state, it is no ground for separating from the Church. On the contrary, the worse things are going, the more should we hold close to her, for it is not by separating from the Church that we can make her better. We must not separate from God on account of any work of the devil, nor cease to have fellowship with the children of God who are still abiding in the pale of Rome on account of the multitude of the ungodly. There is no sin, no amount of evil, which should be permitted to dissolve the bond of charity or break the bond of unity of the body. For love can do all things, and nothing is difficult to those who are united.” - Letter to Pope Leo X, January 6, 1519





De Synodo Diocesana was written when Benedict XIV was Cardinal Lambertini in 1725. It does not define what an anathema is, but rather was quoting a specific case.

Here is the original ---> Sanctissimi domini nostri Benedicti Papae XIV De Synodo Diocesana libri tredecim in duos tomos distributi





I doubt the pope said that, but please quote him and I will comment.

Oh, just check the news on the link by Pope Francis between the pandemic and global warming. This guy is a Peronist, which means a fascist in Argentina modelled after Mussolini. If you don't believe that, read up on Argentine history. If you like Pope Francis, consider yourself a liberal Catholic.

The issue with Luther was that he said that there was no Salvation outside of the church and Calvin, too, according to your quotations but it has not been established if those two considered Catholicism as Christian or not so the quotations that you used prove nothing at this point in your attempt to say that Protestants say the same things that you do when you say that there is no Salvation outside the walls of the Catholic Church, which you have been saying for a thousand years as far as I know and maybe longer.

No, we do not recognize that the Pope is the leader of all Christians but that he merely claimed that for himself. Where do you get that idea?
 

utilyan

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Social gospel. Even atheists can embrace the social gospel because it is devoid of God.

John 14

15“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

Folks hate that gospel as they do Jesus.


Anti Christs even during their time try to dissuade people from teaching of Jesus.

2 John 1

6And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it. 7For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward. 9Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.


Satan's #1 objective is to get rid of Love from the gospel. Because GOD is LOVE.

1 John 4

7Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

Satan worshipers can't stand the command of God.
 

church mouse guy

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John 14

15“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

Folks hate that gospel as they do Jesus.


Anti Christs even during their time try to dissuade people from teaching of Jesus.

2 John 1

6And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it. 7For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward. 9Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.


Satan's #1 objective is to get rid of Love from the gospel. Because GOD is LOVE.

1 John 4

7Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

Satan worshipers can't stand the command of God.

Well, since this is Maundy Thursday:

John 13:34 (KJV) A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
 

utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oh, just check the news on the link by Pope Francis between the pandemic and global warming. This guy is a Peronist, which means a fascist in Argentina modelled after Mussolini. If you don't believe that, read up on Argentine history. If you like Pope Francis, consider yourself a liberal Catholic.

The issue with Luther was that he said that there was no Salvation outside of the church and Calvin, too, according to your quotations but it has not been established if those two considered Catholicism as Christian or not so the quotations that you used prove nothing at this point in your attempt to say that Protestants say the same things that you do when you say that there is no Salvation outside the walls of the Catholic Church, which you have been saying for a thousand years as far as I know and maybe longer.

No, we do not recognize that the Pope is the leader of all Christians but that he merely claimed that for himself. Where do you get that idea?

I believe there is no salvation outside the Catholic church. What that MEANS however is far different then folks who worship a "SPIRITUAL HITLER VOLCANO ANGRY CHIMP" version of GOD.

The Church is inclusive. Heaven is CATHOLIC. Jesus Christ is Catholic, God is Catholic.

Everyone who is dead....is a catholic now for sure.

Plenty folks here are indoctrinated to take the most vilifying attitude of all other religions and denominations and to present them in the worst light possible.

I remember doing BAPTIST bible studies like Thursday nights past and the transparent overhead projector going over EVERY CONSPIRACY THEORY it could gather of any other faith/religion/denomination. If Jews had a star oh look its a pentagram now. Buddhas worship a demon, Muslims a pagan moon goddess.
The whole thing clearly cult-like to brainwash and indoctrinate groundless hatred and intolerance to anything not like yourself.

I never heard a presentation of like a better alternative of what a person believes here. No the entire faith banks on accusation of someone else with nothing better to show for it.
 

atpollard

Well-Known Member
For example, you stated in a previous post that "they [Catholics] cursed Protestants to hell in Trent and they never have rescinded it." This is not true. If you think it is, please post the canon / teaching / document from Trent stating such.
In the Sixth Session (around page 45)

CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.
CANON II.-If any one saith, that the grace of God, through Jesus Christ, is given only for this, that man may be able more easily to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if, by free will without grace, he were able to do both, though hardly indeed and with difficulty; let him be anathema.
CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.
[Page 45] CANON IV.-If any one saith, that man's free will moved and excited by God, by assenting to God exciting and calling, nowise co-operates towards disposing and preparing itself for obtaining the grace of Justification; that it cannot refuse its consent, if it would, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive; let him be anathema.
CANON V.-If any one saith, that, since Adam's sin, the free will of man is lost and extinguished; or, that it is a thing with only a name, yea a name without a reality, a figment, in fine, introduced into the Church by Satan; let him be anathema.
CANON VI.-If any one saith, that it is not in man's power to make his ways evil, but that the works that are evil God worketh as well as those that are good, not permissively only, but properly, and of Himself, in such wise that the treason of Judas is no less His own proper work than the vocation of Paul; let him be anathema.
CANON VII.-If any one saith, that all works done before Justification, in whatsoever way they be done, are truly sins, or merit the hatred of God; or that the more earnestly one strives to dispose himself for grace, the more grievously he sins: let him be anathema.
CANON VIII.-If any one saith, that the fear of hell,-whereby, by grieving for our sins, we flee unto the mercy of God, or refrain from sinning,-is a sin, or makes sinners worse; let him be anathema.
CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of

Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.
CANON X.-If any one saith, that men are just without the justice of Christ, whereby He merited for us to be justified; or that it is by that justice itself that they are formally just; let him be anathema.
[Page 46] CANON XI.-If any one saith, that men are justified, either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and is inherent in them; or even that the grace, whereby we are justified, is only the favour of God; let him be anathema.
CANON XII.-If any one saith, that justifying faith is nothing else but confidence in the divine mercy which remits sins for Christ's sake; or, that this confidence alone is that whereby we are justified; let him be anathema.
CANON XIII.-If any one saith, that it is necessary for every one, for the obtaining the remission of sins, that he believe for certain, and without any wavering arising from his own infirmity and disposition, that his sins are forgiven him; let him be anathema.
CANON XIV.-If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema.
CANON XV.-If any one saith, that a man, who is born again and justified, is bound of faith to believe that he is assuredly in the number of the predestinate; let him be anathema.
CANON XVI.-If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end,-unless he have learned this by special revelation; let him be anathema.
CANON XVII.-If any one saith, that the grace of Justification is only attained to by those who are predestined unto life; but that all others who are called, are called indeed, but receive not grace, as being, by the divine power, predestined unto evil; let him be anathema.
CANON XVIII.-If any one saith, that the commandments of God are, even for one that is justified and constituted in grace, impossible to keep; let him be anathema.
[Page 47] CANON XIX.-If any one saith, that nothing besides faith is commanded in the Gospel; that other things are indifferent, neither commanded nor prohibited, but free; or, that the ten commandments nowise appertain to Christians; let him be anathema.

CANON XX.-If any one saith, that the man who is justified and how perfect soever, is not bound to observe the commandments of God and of the Church, but only to believe; as if indeed the Gospel were a bare and absolute promise of eternal life, without the condition of observing the commandments ; let him be anathema.
CANON XXI.-If any one saith, that Christ Jesus was given of God to men, as a redeemer in whom to trust, and not also as a legislator whom to obey; let him be anathema.
CANON XXII.-If any one saith, that the justified, either is able to persevere, without the special help of God, in the justice received; or that, with that help, he is not able; let him be anathema.
CANON XXIII.-lf any one saith, that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he that falls and sins was never truly justified; or, on the other hand, that he is able, during his whole life, to avoid all sins, even those that are venial,- except by a special privilege from God, as the Church holds in regard of the Blessed Virgin; let him be anathema.
CANON XXIV.-If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.
CANON XXV.-If any one saith, that, in every good work, the just sins venially at least, or-which is more intolerable still-mortally, and consequently deserves eternal punishments; and that for this cause only he is not damned, that God does not impute those works unto damnation; let him be anathema.
CANON XXVI.-If any one saith, that the just ought not, for their good works done in God, to expect and hope for an eternal recompense from God, through His mercy and the merit of Jesus Christ, if so be that they persevere to the end in well [Page 48] doing and in keeping the divine commandments; let him be anathema.
CANON XXVII.-If any one saith, that there is no mortal sin but that of infidelity; or, that grace once received is not lost by any other sin, however grievous and enormous, save by that of infidelity ; let him be anathema.
CANON XXVIII.-If any one saith, that, grace being lost through sin, faith also is always lost with it; or, that the faith which remains, though it be not a lively faith, is not a true faith; or, that he, who has faith without charity, is not a Chris taught; let him be anathema.
CANON XXIX.-If any one saith, that he, who has fallen after baptism, is not able by the grace of God to rise again; or, that he is able indeed to recover the justice which he has lost, but by faith alone without the sacrament of Penance, contrary to what the holy Roman and universal Church-instructed by Christ and his Apostles-has hitherto professed,

observed, and taugh; let him be anathema.
CANON XXX.-If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema.
CANON XXXI.-If any one saith, that the justified sins when he performs good works with a view to an eternal recompense; let him be anathema.
CANON XXXII.-If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose [Page 49] living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life,-if so be, however, that he depart in grace,-and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema.
CANON XXXIII.-If any one saith,that,by the Catholic doctrine touching Justification, by this holy Synod inset forth in this present decree, the glory of God, or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ are in any way derogated from, and not rather that the truth of our faith, and the glory in fine of God and of Jesus Christ are rendered (more) illustrious; let him be anathema.

... like I said to someone else, councils like the word anathema.
 

church mouse guy

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I believe there is no salvation outside the Catholic church. What that MEANS however is far different then folks who worship a "SPIRITUAL HITLER VOLCANO ANGRY CHIMP" version of GOD.

The Church is inclusive. Heaven is CATHOLIC. Jesus Christ is Catholic, God is Catholic.

Everyone who is dead....is a catholic now for sure.

Plenty folks here are indoctrinated to take the most vilifying attitude of all other religions and denominations and to present them in the worst light possible.

I remember doing BAPTIST bible studies like Thursday nights past and the transparent overhead projector going over EVERY CONSPIRACY THEORY it could gather of any other faith/religion/denomination. If Jews had a star oh look its a pentagram now. Buddhas worship a demon, Muslims a pagan moon goddess.
The whole thing clearly cult-like to brainwash and indoctrinate groundless hatred and intolerance to anything not like yourself.

I never heard a presentation of like a better alternative of what a person believes here. No the entire faith banks on accusation of someone else with nothing better to show for it.

Yeah, but my question is do you think that everyone goes to Heaven, even other religions? Muslims, for example, have another paradise that resembles a brothel where the husband gets all these women but I don't know what Muhammad thought that women would do in paradise. I don't think that Buddhists believe in Heaven.

More importantly, some people love Satan and want to be in Hell with him so if God is love, how could God force someone to go to Heaven who wanted to go to Hell?
 

utilyan

Well-Known Member
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Yeah, but my question is do you think that everyone goes to Heaven, even other religions? Muslims, for example, have another paradise that resembles a brothel where the husband gets all these women but I don't know what Muhammad thought that women would do in paradise. I don't think that Buddhists believe in Heaven.

More importantly, some people love Satan and want to be in Hell with him so if God is love, how could God force someone to go to Heaven who wanted to go to Hell?

"Yeah, but my question is do you think that everyone goes to Heaven, even other religions?"
Its possible. The good Samaritan is a Good Samaritan. Not a Good Christian not a Damned Samaritan.


"More importantly, some people love Satan and want to be in Hell with him so if God is love, how could God force someone to go to Heaven who wanted to go to Hell?"

Hell is locked from the inside.


"I don't think that Buddhists believe in Heaven."

Good buddhist don't believe in anything. Know God vs Believe God kinda thing
 

Adonia

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
This is an excellent point.

Catholics come to this forum to claim that they are persecuted when, in fact, they are and have traditionally been the primary persecutors.

We come to this forum to refute charge after charge from you folks. We do not lay baseless accusations against you, that is what you people do to us and our faith tradition. You accuse and we respond - it's that simple.
 

Walpole

Well-Known Member
In the Sixth Session (around page 45)

I just re-read the Sixth Session and it does not curse Protestants to hell anywhere in it. In fact, I searched the entire document and the only place the word "hell" appears in the Sixth Session is an anathema on anyone who claims that the fear of hell is itself a sin.

CANON VIII. ---> If any one saith, that the fear of hell, whereby, by grieving for our sins, we flee unto the mercy of God, or refrain from sinning, is a sin, or makes sinners worse; let him be anathema.

---> http://www.documentacatholicaomnia....ilium_Tridentinum,_Canons_And_Decrees,_EN.pdf


... like I said to someone else, councils like the word anathema.

Like I said to someone else, councils also like the word "the".

You are making a logical fallacy (false equivalence). Once again, an anathema is an excommunication, not a condemnation to hell.
 

Adonia

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oh, just check the news on the link by Pope Francis between the pandemic and global warming. This guy is a Peronist, which means a fascist in Argentina modelled after Mussolini. If you don't believe that, read up on Argentine history. If you like Pope Francis, consider yourself a liberal Catholic.

The issue with Luther was that he said that there was no Salvation outside of the church and Calvin, too, according to your quotations but it has not been established if those two considered Catholicism as Christian or not so the quotations that you used prove nothing at this point in your attempt to say that Protestants say the same things that you do when you say that there is no Salvation outside the walls of the Catholic Church, which you have been saying for a thousand years as far as I know and maybe longer.

No, we do not recognize that the Pope is the leader of all Christians but that he merely claimed that for himself. Where do you get that idea?

Pope Francis is way off base on this and yes I agree he is a leftist. Being a conservative, his two predecessors were more to my liking.
 

Walpole

Well-Known Member
Oh, just check the news on the link by Pope Francis between the pandemic and global warming. This guy is a Peronist, which means a fascist in Argentina modelled after Mussolini. If you don't believe that, read up on Argentine history. If you like Pope Francis, consider yourself a liberal Catholic.

Ok, I did a Google search and I see lots of articles with sensationalist headlines such as...

"Pope Francis: Coronavirus pandemic could be nature's response to climate crisis" ---> Pope Francis: Coronavirus pandemic could be nature's response to climate crisis - CNN

"Pope says coronavirus outbreak may be one of 'nature's responses' to climate change" ---> Pope says coronavirus outbreak may be one of 'nature's responses' to climate change

Pope says coronavirus could be ‘nature’s response’ to climate change

The problem with these sensationalist headlines is they never quote the pope stating that. Do you have a link to him making such a statement?


The issue with Luther was that he said that there was no Salvation outside of the church and Calvin, too, according to your quotations but it has not been established if those two considered Catholicism as Christian or not so the quotations that you used prove nothing at this point in your attempt to say that Protestants say the same things that you do when you say that there is no Salvation outside the walls of the Catholic Church, which you have been saying for a thousand years as far as I know and maybe longer.

Naturally they considered their own sects "the Church". In reality it demonstrates the illogicalness of the belief in a strictly pneumatological church of believers of different and contradictory creeds.


No, we do not recognize that the Pope is the leader of all Christians but that he merely claimed that for himself. Where do you get that idea?

You do, implicitly. After all, what exactly are Protestants protesting? Paradoxically, it is the Catholic Church with her pope which actually unites Protestantism. The only thing that truly unites the multitudes of Protestant sects is their protest of the Church and their belief that the Catholic Church is not Christ's Church. In other words, the very essence of Protestantism today is still defined by the unity of the Catholic Church and their protest of it.

It is a beautiful expression of how the Church's unity projects even unto her adversaries.
 

Salty

20,000 Posts Club
Administrator
Let me try one more time - According to Catholic doctrine: What must a person do to ensure they are going to Heaven
 

utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Let me try one more time - According to Catholic doctrine: What must a person do to ensure they are going to Heaven

Priority Is Love God and Love Neighbor. No commandment about saving your own skin.

Jesus Christ answers PERFECTLY.

Luke 10
25And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?” 27And he answered, “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” 28And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.”

Here's a novel idea. Jesus has the best answer.
 

atpollard

Well-Known Member
You are making a logical fallacy (false equivalence). Once again, an anathema is an excommunication, not a condemnation to hell.
I suspect you are splitting a semantic hair, but just for the sake of clarity ... theologically speaking, what is the consequence of being excommunicated?

Is there any consequence to being cut off from the “Body of Christ”?
Is there any consequence to being denied all of the sacraments?

I was led to understand that Catholic theology does not view things like “communion” (the bread and wine) as merely symbolic ... like Baptists do ... so taking or not taking the sacrament probably has more significance than a Baptist ritual of remembrance. Here is an opportunity for you to correct my misunderstanding.
 

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Formula for Anathema by Pope Zachary:

"Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment."
 

Walpole

Well-Known Member
I suspect you are splitting a semantic hair, but just for the sake of clarity ... theologically speaking, what is the consequence of being excommunicated?

Is there any consequence to being cut off from the “Body of Christ”?
Is there any consequence to being denied all of the sacraments?

I was led to understand that Catholic theology does not view things like “communion” (the bread and wine) as merely symbolic ... like Baptists do ... so taking or not taking the sacrament probably has more significance than a Baptist ritual of remembrance. Here is an opportunity for you to correct my misunderstanding.


There is no splitting of semantic hair. Excommunication comes from two Latin words: ex, which means "out of" or "from" and communicatio, which means "communion", "fellowship" or "partaking". Hence to excommunicate means to be out of communion or out of fellowship. The Church has the authority exclude individuals from the Sacraments and from communion with her (the Church). The end / purpose of excommunication is not separation and punishment from the Church, but rather to encourage repentance, restoration and full communion.


---> Matthew 18:17
---> 1 Cor 16:22
---> Galatians 1:8-9
---> Titus 3:10-11
 

atpollard

Well-Known Member
There is no splitting of semantic hair. Excommunication comes from two Latin words: ex, which means "out of" or "from" and communicatio, which means "communion", "fellowship" or "partaking". Hence to excommunicate means to be out of communion or out of fellowship. The Church has the authority exclude individuals from the Sacraments and from communion with her (the Church). The end / purpose of excommunication is not separation and punishment from the Church, but rather to encourage repentance, restoration and full communion.


---> Matthew 18:17
---> 1 Cor 16:22
---> Galatians 1:8-9
---> Titus 3:10-11
But Is there a spiritual consequence during the time of excommunication?
 

utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I suspect you are splitting a semantic hair, but just for the sake of clarity ... theologically speaking, what is the consequence of being excommunicated?

Is there any consequence to being cut off from the “Body of Christ”?
Is there any consequence to being denied all of the sacraments?

I was led to understand that Catholic theology does not view things like “communion” (the bread and wine) as merely symbolic ... like Baptists do ... so taking or not taking the sacrament probably has more significance than a Baptist ritual of remembrance. Here is an opportunity for you to correct my misunderstanding.

Its funny and cute. But your looking for dirt that just ain't there. You cannot get kicked out the Catholic church. Hitler didn't even get kicked out. No one in all its history has been kicked out. An excommunication is a protection to avoid a sacrilege that scripture even claims folks just drop dead from doing.

Don't ask Nazis what Jews believe.

We have our doctrines nicely organized for you right here Catechism of the Catholic Church

Easy Challenge, Find something wrong we actually believe.
 
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