free will vs. election???????

[Gorship]

Thankfully you are not God.

God word says,

That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.​

​

God word says,

so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.” 13Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.​

God's word says,

What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
​

...

Adrian will do better Justice going through romans than I can:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-CcIoWTUmI

 

[preacher4truth]

Adrian will do better Justice going through romans than I can:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-CcIoWTUmI

Adrian is practical but weak in theology. He's argued against Calvinism for years. All he brings are cute rhymes and quips. He's never had nor has he ever brought a solid case against this truth.

 

[Herald]

:applause::thumbsup:

I like this, from here the response was "Gods Grace changes that" paraphrasing obviously

The question then is why doesn't God move His 'Irresistable Grace' On all? Does God love everyone or some people? If you are to say that God loves only those whom He has predestined to love. The nature of God is now tarnished imho.

You have to deal with Ephesians 2:1-9

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

1. All men are born spiritually dead (2:1). The word for dead, nekros, is same word used of a corpse. As a corpse is devoid of physical life, so the immaterial part of man is devoid of spiritual life.

2. "But God..." (2:4). Even while still dead in sins "but God". God is the One who takes unilateral action on behalf of His elect. God is the subject and man is the object. God is active and man is passive.

3. "even when were dead in our transgressions" (2:5). Sinful man does nothing but remain in his sinful state. There is no act of faith.

4. "made us alive together with Christ" (2:5). God does this. Once again man is the recipient of God's action on his behalf. This is where regeneration takes place; God making it possible for man to believe.

5. Grace through faith (2:8, 9). God makes the sinner alive together with Christ by grace which allows man to believe (faith).

Why does God not do this for all?

But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; (1 Peter 2:9)

Peter is quoting partially from Isaiah in this text. In the same way God chose Israel out of all the nations of the earth to be His special people, God has called His elect from all nations of the earth to be His own possession. Why did God not make a covenant with all the nations that existed during the time of Abraham? If you can answer that question then you will know why He does not elect all.

 

[preacher4truth]

what i have said is ad hominem? I dont think you know what that word means.

regardless. I have not done anything with the Godhead. I disagree with the idea that God will only save who he predestined to save from the beginning as the Calvinist suggest. I feel it tarnishes the beauty of the Gospel. Yes.

You can check out:
http://sbctoday.com/wp-content/uplo...al-Southern-Baptist-Soteriology-SBC-Today.pdf

Norman Geisler
Adrian Rogers

for people whom I agree with.

OK so you don't know what ad hominem is.

Face it, you don't like Sovereignty in predestination, nor in election. This is apparent. You want to have control over it all. You want to be the one who chooses. You don't like the faqct that it is God who chooses, not you.

By the way, it is not the Calvinists who suggest this, it is the truth of Scripture. And you would have a serious problem with God knowing this were true, by your own words. Who are you to reply against God? Romans 9 much?

You certainly cannot do a thing against the Godhead but you have in fact placed God in a box and called Him tarnished if predestination and election are true.

Now, does God choose whom He wills to save?

Are His people seen as chosen by Him in the NT, just as Israel was also chosen, a brand plucked in the OT?

1 Cor. 1:21ff, 1 Thess 1:4ff, Titus 1:1ff, 1 Peter 1:1ff, Romans 9 and much much more show GOD chose or elected.

You name two who are weak in theology as support. Rogers is a decent preacher, but listening closely to him I'd say he has some serious theological issues. He has cute quips and rhymes, and neat little sayings, but these are oft times contrary to sound doctrine. Eloquence doesn't equal truth.

 

[Iconoclast]

BaptistJG
hello BG. welcome to BB.

The question then is why doesn't God move His 'Irresistable Grace' On all?

If you believe that God is Holy....and All Wise,and omniscient, Why not just trust him when he determines to do what is best?

Does God love everyone or some people? If you are to say that God loves only those whom He has predestined to love. The nature of God is now tarnished imho

.

Do you also feel that way when you read this?

3 Hear this word that the Lord hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying,

2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

cannot the potter do what he desires to do?

6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

8 But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.


Do you feel the same way about this...when one nation is selected out from all others???

 

[Gorship]

The lack of respect on this thread is astounding. I would like to continue in the discussion, if I didnt feel personally attacked with every response. I will be stepping out of this, not due to any arguments that have swayed me. In 37 pages, I am more convinced against Calvinistic soteriology then before, But rather a lack of respect from those who disagree with any decision other than Calvinism.

I will say if anything I said was rude in writing it was not intentioned.

However this does not seem fruitful or profitable for me, and I really wonder how it could be for anyone.

Ciao.

 

[preacher4truth]

The lack of respect on this thread is astounding. I would like to continue in the discussion, if I didnt feel personally attacked with every response. I will be stepping out of this, not due to any arguments that have swayed me. In 37 pages, I am more convinced against Calvinistic soteriology then before, But rather a lack of respect from those who disagree with any decision other than Calvinism.

I will say if anything I said was rude in writing it was not intentioned.

However this does not seem fruitful or profitable for me, and I really wonder how it could be for anyone.

Ciao.

So if someone brings a strong argument against you, it is a personal attack?

Shucks, we should have propped you up on our shoulders and carried you to victory instead of challenging your theology!

Iron sharpens iron. You brought your arguments, be prepared to defend them. Also be prepared to see that you are incorrect.

Why not simply answer the things given to you, such as why Israel was chosen, and the vast Scriptures given you that show God has chosen?

And you offer little to nothing from Scripture yourself. You've not been through 37 pages, the last several yes, 37, no.

If you have to leave, Ciao back at ya.

By the way, this is a DEBATE forum.

 

[HisWitness]

Yes, you must keep a part of man good in order to come to your conclusions when God says the whole man is dead. That means all of him which includes his will.

man is completely evil friend he has corrupted his self.

if his will was dead--then he would not be exercising it now would he?
I do not keep no part of man good--its your own confusion that is causing you not too see--I have stated that man will ALWAYS choose evil with his will because man is fully evil and corrupt--unless God intervenes for man

 

[preacher4truth]

man is completely evil friend he has corrupted his self.

Completely? Not according to you. You've kept him breathing in his will, which is still good according to you and thus he chooses salvation and allows God to save him.

No. You do not believe he is completely evil. Only partially.

 

[agedman]

The lack of respect on this thread is astounding. I would like to continue in the discussion, if I didnt feel personally attacked with every response. I will be stepping out of this, not due to any arguments that have swayed me. In 37 pages, I am more convinced against Calvinistic soteriology then before, But rather a lack of respect from those who disagree with any decision other than Calvinism.

I will say if anything I said was rude in writing it was not intentioned.

However this does not seem fruitful or profitable for me, and I really wonder how it could be for anyone.

Ciao.

You are welcome to hang around, but don't think that your view and statements will go without sever scrutiny.

At times, I withdraw from a thread, too.

If you are willing to practice placing Scripture and Scripture principle above any and all man thinking, then you will be better able to handle the vitriol that the BB can sometime degenerate, too.

Use the Scriptures.

Post using the Scriptures.

Be open to various views on those Scriptures.

BTW, I miss Adrian. I have a long list of folks I want to visit with in heaven, and he is certainly one of them.

 

[Iconoclast]

If the will is always bound by nature, and even Christians were by nature children of wrath, then nobody would ever be saved because the believer would have always been bound to his sinful nature.

That is why it is essential to be born from above.The supernatural work of God in bringing a dead sinner to life giving him a new heart is the crucial element necessary.That is why the confession wisely worded it this way;


1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )

 

[HisWitness]

Completely? Not according to you. You've kept him breathing in his will, which is still good according to you and thus he chooses salvation and allows God to save him.

No. You do not believe he is completely evil. Only partially.

you can twist my words around all you like with your confusion.

i can see no matter what i say your gonna twist it--so 1 last time
Man will never be saved UNLESS God works the work of grace in man
Man will ALWAYS choose sin and evil with his will because that is what he loves and wants--until God causes man to want and to be willing to choose God with his will--say what you will--it is a work of God if man is saved and if not saved its completely man's fault---PERIOD---

 

[preacher4truth]

You are welcome to hang around, but don't think that your view and statements will go without sever scrutiny.

At times, I withdraw from a thread, too.

If you are willing to practice placing Scripture and Scripture principle above any and all man thinking, then you will be better able to handle the vitriol that the BB can sometime degenerate, too.

Use the Scriptures.

Post using the Scriptures.

Be open to various views on those Scriptures.

BTW, I miss Adrian. I have a long list of folks I want to visit with in heaven, and he is certainly one of them.

Doing such would be to his advantage and I welcome it. Otherwise he is assuming he is correct, and is instead of using Scripture, using his own ideas and youtube videos as proof. There has been little to no Scripture used by him to support his views.

It's like 'Here is my idea' and when challenged 'How dare you challenge ME!!!?' Pride.

Growth comes when challenged. Running away there is no growth.

Thank God someone challenged my theology and showed me I was clearly wrong!

 

[preacher4truth]

you can twist my words around all you like with your confusion.

i can see no matter what i say your gonna twist it--so 1 last time
Man will never be saved UNLESS God works the work of grace in man
Man will ALWAYS choose sin and evil with his will because that is what he loves and wants--until God causes man to want and to be willing to choose God with his will--say what you will--it is a work of God if man is saved and if not saved its completely man's fault---PERIOD---

HW,

You say completely but make his will good, which would undo him being completely evil.

How that is twisting your words is ridiculous. I'm simply pointing out an error there my friend.

If his will is still good, then he is not completely evil.

 

[HisWitness]

HW,

You say completely but make his will good, which would undo him being completely evil.

How that is twisting your words is ridiculous. I'm simply pointing out an error there my friend.

If his will is still good, then he is not completely evil.

how and the world are you getting im saying his will is good ?
beside adam had the same nature before the fall--when he by his will chose to eat of that which God said NO--my whole point is this--adam could have by his will chsen to obey God--but man will always by his will CHOOSE that which is evil and sin when given the choice--unless God intervenes on behalf of man.

 

[Gorship]

So if someone brings a strong argument against you, it is a personal attack?

Shucks, we should have propped you up on our shoulders and carried you to victory instead of challenging your theology!

Iron sharpens iron. You brought your arguments, be prepared to defend them. Also be prepared to see that you are incorrect.

Why not simply answer the things given to you, such as why Israel was chosen, and the vast Scriptures given you that show God has chosen?

And you offer little to nothing from Scripture yourself. You've not been through 37 pages, the last several yes, 37, no.

If you have to leave, Ciao back at ya.

By the way, this is a DEBATE forum.

Show me the strong argument? You mocked me and said I was putting God in a box for having a strong conviction against calvinism.

Iron sharpens Iron, sure, but you mock me and say I dont know what an ad hominem is, like I speak without thinking. Thats not sharpening anything.

I feel like God has called all to repentance

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+17:22-31&version=KJV

Acts 17:30

King James Version (KJV)

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Yes I have read through the thread. Don't know why you call me a liar.

At the very least, Maybe im just not quite intellectual enough for the conversation. As I don't see these things (the Calvinism) in the scriptures listed.

 

[Revmitchell]

Hebrews 10:14

4 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever THEM THAT ARE SANCTIFIEDd.

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

This is speaking of the results of Our Great High Priest.

he did something.......HE HATH PERFECTED FOREVER.....

for someone.......THEM THAT ARE SANCTIFIED.....

he actually accomplished this....FOR THEM...
And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
I will put my laws into their hearts
This is the covenant that I will make with them
Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us

That verse says nothing of the sort. It is talking about those who are saved. But it does not address, in any way, the idea that If Christ died for all sinners, all would be saved. That is not even in view in this verse.

 

[quantumfaith]

Is the transmission of Total inability toward God in the text in Genesis?

I see Adam, Eve and Cain and Abel still able to commune with God, right?

Excellent observation awaken. Don't lose sight of that.

 

[Iconoclast]

That verse says nothing of the sort. It is talking about those who are saved. But it does not address, in any way, the idea that If Christ died for all sinners, all would be saved. That is not even in view in this verse.

thank you for your response....
That All men who ever lived would be saved is not taught in scripture so of course it does not say that.

What it clearly does say is

He hath perfected forever....them that are sanctified

The unsaved ...are not perfected forever...agreed???

So we have those who are perfected forever as being described as THEM who ARE sanctified.....

the fact that it is a describable group....demonstrates the scope of all that follows as the benefits of the cross.

think in terms of the High priest and mediator...interceding on behalf of the elect!
22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:

24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

the unsaved have no SURETY...

if the cross perfected forever all men ..all would be saved..

so how would the cross have two different results? i suspect you want to say man has something to do with it...but this passage does notr allow for what man does at all.It is about what Jesus did accomplish eternally for THEM THAT ARE SANCTIFIED.

 

[Revmitchell]

thank you for your response....
That All men who ever lived would be saved is not taught in scripture so of course it does not say that.

What it clearly does say is

He hath perfected forever....them that are sanctified

The unsaved ...are not perfected forever...agreed???

So we have those who are perfected forever as being described as THEM who ARE sanctified.....

the fact that it is a describable group....demonstrates the scope of all that follows as the benefits of the cross.

I'm sorry but you are making an assumption here and reading into this what is not there. We will just have to agree to disagree here.