God given unalienable right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness

[JonC]

Oo. I was formulating a response and was searching for something that I thought I remembered JonC saying in the last few days about the Declaration of Independence being wrong.

Because that's his real aim in all this. Invalidate the premise of god-given rights, and you invalidate the U.S.

And this little gem popped up.

How Does a Christian Choose?
Jon said:

The U.S. government is responsible for the lives of people who fall within her jurisdiction. This includes both citizens and non-citizens. The U.S. Constitution recognizes rights to both citizens and non-citizens. But the right to life is not a constitutionally given right, it is a God given right (and so recognized in the Constitution). Citizenship is derived from laws within a secular government. If we base the right to live on citizenship we have surrendered the fight to the pro-abortionists. Life is a God given right because life is given by God, not by man.​

You are a confused little man (or woman).

I am not talking about the US Constitution or the DOI (they define these "rights" in their own context.

I am saying your liberalism and idea of human entitlement is unbiblical.

 

[Van]

Those are given only to men through salvation in Christ.

Is it then fair to say you believe salvation is a human right, that men are entitled to salvation???

I believe God has commanded us (born anew believers) to spread the gospel to the whole of humanity. Can we say God desires all people to be saved? Thus should we not consider the right to have an opportunity for salvation has been bestowed upon humanity. For example God loves humanity in this way, He gave His uniquely divine Son so that everyone believing into Him would not perish but have eternal life.

 

[JonC]

I believe God has commanded us (born anew believers) to spread the gospel to the whole of humanity. Can we say God desires all people to be saved? Thus should we not consider the right to have an opportunity for salvation has been bestowed upon humanity. For example God loves humanity in this way, He gave His uniquely divine Son so that everyone believing into Him would not perish but have eternal life.

Yes, we can say God desires all not only to hear the gospel but to be saved.

That said, no, I do not believe salvation a human entitlement (I believe it is unmerited grace - God loving people when they have no entitlement to that love).

 

[Van]

Yes, we can say God desires all not only to hear the gospel but to be saved.

That said, no, I do not believe salvation a human entitlement (I believe it is unmerited grace - God loving people when they have no entitlement to that love).

Right, I said the opportunity for salvation, not the right to salvation.

 

[JonC]

Right, I said the opportunity for salvation, not the right to salvation.

I do not know that man is entitled to the opportunity for salvation either.

 

[37818]

I agree with the passage. I disagree, however, that the passage is descriptive of God giving men the unalienable right or entitlement to pursue his or her own happiness, to his or her life, or liberty.

I do not understand how you interpret the verse to speak of human entitlements.

The bottom line is whether our country's DOI is based in truth or a lie. John 8:44, Revelation 12:9.

 

[JonC]

The bottom line is whether our country's DOI is based in truth or a lie. John 8:44, Revelation 12:9.

I am not talking the basis of the DOI.

I am asking if we are entitled to life? Scripture seems to indicate life is not an entitlement but a gift or blessing from God.

 

[Alcott]

I am not talking the basis of the DOI.

I am asking if we are entitled to life? Scripture seems to indicate life is not an entitlement but a gift or blessing from God.

If to kill a man is to kill one made in the image of God, and is therefore strongly forbidden, how does that not entitle a man to life? At the least it is saying a man is entitled not to be murdered.

 

[JonC]

If to kill a man is to kill one made in the image of God, and is therefore strongly forbidden, how does that not entitle a man to life? At the least it is saying a man is entitled not to be murdered.

It prohibits killing. It does not give men life as an entitlement.

Prohibiting cursing does not give another person the right not to be cursed at.

A prohibition is not the granting of rights.

 

[37818]

I am asking if we are entitled to life? Scripture seems to indicate life is not an entitlement but a gift or blessing from God

Everyone without exception who is alive is given this gift of life. So none is entitled to one's life? If not, that is not rational.

 

[JonC]

Everyone without exception who is alive is given this gift of life. So none is entitled to one's life? If not, that is not rational.

Everyone is given this gift...as a gift...not an entitlement.

 

[37818]

Everyone is given this gift...as a gift...not an entitlement.

The gift causes life to be an entitlement. Furthermore one cannot have a gift without having it as one's property, hence the right to a property must precede a gift. Or a gift is never really owned.

 

[Van]

I do not know that man is entitled to the opportunity for salvation either.

Entitled by whom? God desires all men be saved, thus He would have all humanity hear the gospel. I suppose you could say God is not entitled to desire all men be saved by hearing and accepting fully the gospel. No need for evangelism because the lost need not be given the same opportunity we had. Got it...

 

[JonC]

Entitled by whom? God desires all men be saved, thus He would have all humanity hear the gospel. I suppose you could say God is not entitled to desire all men be saved by hearing and accepting fully the gospel. No need for evangelism because the lost need not be given the same opportunity we had. Got it...

We are not entitled. So entitled by no entity. We are given life. A gift is not an unalienable right. We have been given life, to which we are not entitled, by God and in His image therefore man has no right to take it. Got it?

 

[Alcott]

It prohibits killing. It does not give men life as an entitlement.

Prohibiting cursing does not give another person the right not to be cursed at.

A prohibition is not the granting of rights.

I disagree. The constitutional prohibition of compelling an accused person to be a witness against himself does entitle that person to silence, as is stated in those rights that must be read to a suspect.

 

[Van]

We are not entitled. So entitled by no entity. We are given life. A gift is not an unalienable right. We have been given life, to which we are not entitled, by God and in His image therefore man has no right to take it. Got it?

Not even close. Are you claiming that our God given right to life is not a right because we had nothing to do with its bestowal?
We do not have a right to life, so its ok to murder, or enslave, or abuse? I am sorry but my understanding of scripture differs fundamentally.

God desires all men be saved, thus He would have all humanity hear the gospel. I suppose you could say God is not entitled to desire all men be saved by hearing and accepting fully the gospel. No need for evangelism because the lost need not be given the same opportunity we had.

You cannot hear the gospel if you have been murdered.
You cannot hear the gospel if such information has been banned, thus our liberty to exercise our beliefs is a fundamental right, from God's viewpoint.
You cannot pursue happiness in the afterlife if government (say Iran) did not allow Christian teaching in public.

 

[JonC]

I disagree. The constitutional prohibition of compelling an accused person to be a witness against himself does entitle that person to silence, as is stated in those rights that must be read to a suspect.

I am not sure what that provision has to do with God given inalienable rights. I agree we have entitlements and rights under the Constitution.

 

[JonC]

Not even close. Are you claiming that our God given right to life is not a right because we had nothing to do with its bestowal?
We do not have a right to life, so its ok to murder, or enslave, or abuse? I am sorry but my understanding of scripture differs fundamentally.

God desires all men be saved, thus He would have all humanity hear the gospel. I suppose you could say God is not entitled to desire all men be saved by hearing and accepting fully the gospel. No need for evangelism because the lost need not be given the same opportunity we had.

You cannot hear the gospel if you have been murdered.
You cannot hear the gospel if such information has been banned, thus our liberty to exercise our beliefs is a fundamental right, from God's viewpoint.
You cannot pursue happiness in the afterlife if government (say Iran) did not allow Christian teaching in public.

That is not my claim at all - re-read my post.

My claim is that men do not have an entitlement given by God for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Instead I believe that these are gift from God that are not unalienable (that God is not violating our entitlements if He takes our life, or commands that we submit our pursuit to happiness to His will. I truly believe that the wages of sin are death and that men are not entitled to salvation (God did not save men to protect men's entitlements).

 

[Van]

That is not my claim at all - re-read my post.

My claim is that men do not have an entitlement given by God for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Instead I believe that these are gift from God that are not unalienable (that God is not violating our entitlements if He takes our life, or commands that we submit our pursuit to happiness to His will. I truly believe that the wages of sin are death and that men are not entitled to salvation (God did not save men to protect men's entitlements).

You are turning our inalienable rights into entitlements.

 

[JonC]

You are turning our inalienable rights into entitlements.

Not me.

Entitlement- the fact of having a right to something.