Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
I have been showing you scripture
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God made them the vessels of wrath !
- Thread starter Brightfame52
- Start date
Yes, you have! You've always made your points directly from Scripture, and that is to be respected!
There are several predestination verses in Scripture, and taken at face value, it would appear that you are correct. But when all the context is taken in, there arises a totally different meaning to these verses.
Let's take Eph. 1:4-5 for example, as these verses seem to be the most often "go to" predestination verses. But let's take all the surrounding context into account when searching for the truth, not just the face value as is often done. It's important, Brightfame52, that you have a clear understanding of the opposition to predestination. I hope you will take the time to understand what I'm about to cover.
Pay close attention to the context written by Paul.
1) spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ.
2) He has chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world.
3) predestinated unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ.
4 ) in whom we have redemption through His blood.
5) the forgiveness of sins.
While you read these verses, bear in mind the emphasis is on "our redemption through the Blood of Christ."
Eph. 1:3
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:"
The blessings come from Christ, the atonement He provided for us.
Eph. 1:4
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:"
This is not referring to God choosing who will be saved, but rather the plan of redemption God chose for us in Christ before the foundation of the world. The focus is the plan of redemption chosen for us through the finished work of Christ.
Eph. 1:5
"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"
This again is not God choosing the individual as to who will be saved, it's the plan of redemption that has been predestined for us. It is the way God has determined for man to come back into fellowship, only through Christ.
Eph. 1:6
"To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."
"The beloved" here is Christ. We have been accepted by the Father according to His plan of redemption through and in Christ.
Eph. 1:7
"In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;"
The plan of God we have been predestined for is according to "the redemption through His Blood."
"The riches of His grace" is the sacrifice God gave us on the Cross in Jesus Christ."
You are deceiving yourself if you ignore that "it's not God's will that any perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
The reprobate, which are the non elect were born to be taken and destroyed as brute beast. 2 Pet 2:12
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
The word made is the greek word gennaó and means:
I beget (of the male), (of the female) I bring forth, give birth to. properly, beget (procreate a descendant), produce offspring; (passive) be born, "begotten."
S this was Gods purpose for them to be born Ecc 3:1-2
To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;10
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
The word made is the greek word gennaó and means:
I beget (of the male), (of the female) I bring forth, give birth to. properly, beget (procreate a descendant), produce offspring; (passive) be born, "begotten."
S this was Gods purpose for them to be born Ecc 3:1-2
To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;10
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
You are deceived if you believe there are not those whom God created as vessels of wrath and fits them for destruction. He is more than willing they perish, so they are exempt from them of 2 Pet 3:9, which is only about the elect vessels of mercy.
Look at what you've resorted to!
The Scripture plainly says that God is not willing that any perish, but you insist He is willing.
This is a total misunderstanding of God. We definitely don't serve the same God.
But it's going to be what you want it to be, nothing I can do about that.
God foreknows who is fitted for destruction in unrighteousness, those who reject His will for mankind.
But that is not His will, it's their will to reject His wisdom and follow the desires of the flesh.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
2 Pet 3:9 excludes the vessels of wrath God made specifically to fit them for destruction. You deceived
Maybe in the Calvinist world,, but here on earth the "not willing that any should perish" includes everyone who has ever been born into this world.
But that's OK, I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents worth.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Again sir you deceived, 2 Pet 3:9 is all about the elect, has nothing to do with the created vessels of wrath whom God specifically created to perish, He is more than willing they perish
If you were in court with 12 jurors deciding your fate in the "elect" being found in the context of 2 Peter 3:9, you'd be in a lot of trouble.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Dream on, 2 Pet 3:9 is about the elect, you are deceived
Like I said, you'd be wearing orange in a very short time.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Dream on, 2 Pet 3:9 is about the elect, you are deceived
Ok, all you have to do is show me where Peter was referring only to the "elect" as God "not willing that any should perish."
The Scripture is filled with God suffering long with all men, not just the saved.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
I cant show you anything, you deceived. I showed you some are created by God for destruction, to perish. And yes Peter is speaking exclusively of the elect. If you weren't deceived you would know its the elect
It's for sure one of us is deceived, let's just let the Lord work that out.
Meanwhile, let everyone figure for themselves what "not willing for any to perish" really means.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
2 Pet 2:12
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
The word for destroyed is the word phthora and means:
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
The word for destroyed is the word phthora and means:
- corruption, destruction, perishing
- that which is subject to corruption, what is perishable
- in the Christian sense, eternal misery in hell
- that which is subject to corruption, what is perishable
- in the NT, in an ethical sense, corruption i.e. moral decay
So it doesnt in any sense mean or suggest annihilation.
Theres another scripture that speaks of it as eternal destruction 2 Thess 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;11
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Its the elect, no brainer !
It can't be only the elect! These people mentioned by Peter didn't make it.
2 Peter 21-22
"For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."
So much for irresistible grace, it ain't happening, my friend.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
Regarding "vessels fitted for destruction" I tend to think that God did not make them such as a creative act but that they are fitted for destruction because of the way they act over a long period of time. God actually endured them for a long period as it says. If you wonder where that fits in to the Calvinist debate a lot of Calvinists believe that, like Hodge, in his commentary on Romans.
The "vessels of mercy" seem to be objects of a more active part on God, probably because in truth we naturally were selected out of the same group of people as those left to their own free will choices - those who end up being vessels of wrath.
As far as "irresistible grace", I agree it is not irresistible but there again, most Calvinists don't like the term either, only using it because it is part of a clever acronym. But in the case where someone is saved and thus one of the elect, was there a type of grace wrought by God on them that was effective or successful in awakening them and leading them to believe? I say yes, and so do the Calvinists, Arminians, Lutherans, Catholics like Aquinas, and Wesleyans. And was that grace a deciding factor in them being saved? Again, yes, so in their case I guess the word irresistible is at least true, in that they did not resist it. And no, you don't get rewarded and it's not a work or merit to you because you did not resist grace enough to damn yourself.
The "vessels of mercy" seem to be objects of a more active part on God, probably because in truth we naturally were selected out of the same group of people as those left to their own free will choices - those who end up being vessels of wrath.
As far as "irresistible grace", I agree it is not irresistible but there again, most Calvinists don't like the term either, only using it because it is part of a clever acronym. But in the case where someone is saved and thus one of the elect, was there a type of grace wrought by God on them that was effective or successful in awakening them and leading them to believe? I say yes, and so do the Calvinists, Arminians, Lutherans, Catholics like Aquinas, and Wesleyans. And was that grace a deciding factor in them being saved? Again, yes, so in their case I guess the word irresistible is at least true, in that they did not resist it. And no, you don't get rewarded and it's not a work or merit to you because you did not resist grace enough to damn yourself.
The issue in some circles with irresistible grace is what it teaches. Calvin taught that man has no choice in salvation, therefore, the elect can't reject it. The result is "once saved always saved."
This runs deep in the Baptists ranks and there is a division. The Baptists are such a mixed bag that this is just another hot and bitter argument among the Brethren.
It's been my experience that Calvinism brings up many bitter arguments. I guess that's why I'm in such opposition to it, and can't keep my mouth shut, lol.