God's CHOSEN are always SAVED

[JonShaff]

However, according to Ephesians 1:4-5, the believer was chosen "in Christ" ( to be placed within the body ) before the foundation of the world.

No, it says "Chosen to be holy and blameless in His sight--through adoption and sonship through Jesus Christ"
Essentially he is saying, "It was predetermined to bring about an eternal Creation through Jesus Christ."

Referring to Galatians 4:1-7.

I thought it helpful to show you what I see, line by line, when I read it for myself;
I'm curious...
What do you see when you read it?

I see how God took Israel from law to grace.

 

[AustinC]

What are you lazy? Go back to the first post and read them all until you get the answer I'll not do it for you it's there all you have to do is read and understand what you read.
MB

MB, you are stalling. You have never posted verses and explained how they support your assertion.
I find it interesting that you would rather divert and duck instead of interpreting scripture.

 

[AustinC]

No, it says "Chosen to be holy and blameless in His sight--through adoption and sonship through Jesus Christ"
Essentially he is saying, "It was predetermined to bring about an eternal Creation through Jesus Christ."


I see how God took Israel from law to grace.

Ephesians 1:3-14
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

 

[JonShaff]

Ephesians 1:3-14
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Yep, my statement summarizes that. IMO.

Essentially he is saying, "It was predetermined to bring about an eternal Creation through Jesus Christ."

 

[MB]

MB, you are stalling. You have never posted verses and explained how they support your assertion.
I find it interesting that you would rather divert and duck instead of interpreting scripture.

It is you who interprets scripture. I just accept what it says. Interpreting it has already been done. Besides what you say and what scripture says are as different as black and while You make a mockery out of God's word with your interpretation. You are laughable though I do get a big laugh every time you post.
MB

 

[Dave G]

No, it says "Chosen to be holy and blameless in His sight--through adoption and sonship through Jesus Christ"
Essentially he is saying, "It was predetermined to bring about an eternal Creation through Jesus Christ."

Let's take a closer look at it, shall we?

" Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." ( Ephesians 1:3-6 ).

Jon,
"Essentially" ( taking into account every word ) I see this passage saying:

3) Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Who has blessed us with all spiritual blessings in the heavenlies in Christ.

4) According as He has chosen us in Him ( in Christ )...
When?
Before the foundation of the world;
Why?
So that we ( the believers ) should be holy and without blame before Him in love.

5) Having predestinated ( set a person's destiny beforehand ) believers to the adoption of children...
Their being adopted as children;
By Jesus Christ, to Himself...
According to the good pleasure of His will.

6) For what purpose?
To the praise of the glory of His grace...
Wherein that grace, He has made believers accepted in the beloved.

If you're comfortable with that summary in your quote above, then I commend you for it.
But as you can see, we are definitely not seeing the same things when we read the passage.

I see how God took Israel from law to grace.

I see how God sent His Son to redeem the elect, His blessed sheep who were under the condemnation of the Law,
and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross ( Colossians 2:13-14 ).

Again, we're definitely not seeing the same things when we read these passages.

With that said, I wish you well, sir,
and may God bless you greatly in your studies and with many good and perfect gifts.

 

[Sai]

is that an answer to my question ?

It is a refutation of your argument Barry my good man. 99.99% of the world went up in liquid. And 99.99% of the world today have rejected the deity and the propitiation of God.


Joy unspeakable full of glory

 

[percho]

We became the heirs when the law stopped being our schoolmaster.

Galatians 4:1-7 I mean that the heir, as long as he is a child, is no different from a slave, though he is the owner of everything, but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by his father. In the same way we also, when we were children, were enslaved to the elementary principles of the world. But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God.

I said nothing different than that.

and the faith having come, no more under a child-conductor (schoolmaster) are we, ---- Why? Because it was through, the faith that came, we could receive the promise of the Spirit. Gal 3:14 that to the nations the blessing of Abraham may come in Christ Jesus, that the promise of the Spirit we may receive through the faith.

When did, the faith come, that allowed us to receive the promise of the Spirit, the Comforter? John 16:7 YLT 'But I tell you the truth; it is better for you that I go away, for if I may not go away, the Comforter will not come unto you, and if I go on, I will send Him unto you;

Was the faith that came, Jesus being obedient unto death even the death of the cross? I the obedience of One by which many are made righteous the same as the faith by which we were declared righteous.

for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous. Rom 5:19
Having been declared righteous, then, out of faith, we have peace toward God through our Lord Jesus Christ, Rom 5:1

 

[Barry Johnson]

It is a refutation of your argument Barry my good man. 99.99% of the world went up in liquid. And 99.99% of the world today have rejected the deity and the propitiation of God.


Joy unspeakable full of glory

What's your point though?

 

[Sai]

What's your point though?

Don’t try to prove God fairness


Joy unspeakable full of glory

 

[AustinC]

I said nothing different than that.

and the faith having come, no more under a child-conductor (schoolmaster) are we, ---- Why? Because it was through, the faith that came, we could receive the promise of the Spirit. Gal 3:14 that to the nations the blessing of Abraham may come in Christ Jesus, that the promise of the Spirit we may receive through the faith.

When did, the faith come, that allowed us to receive the promise of the Spirit, the Comforter? John 16:7 YLT 'But I tell you the truth; it is better for you that I go away, for if I may not go away, the Comforter will not come unto you, and if I go on, I will send Him unto you;

Was the faith that came, Jesus being obedient unto death even the death of the cross? I the obedience of One by which many are made righteous the same as the faith by which we were declared righteous.

for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous. Rom 5:19
Having been declared righteous, then, out of faith, we have peace toward God through our Lord Jesus Christ, Rom 5:1

Are you making faith and the Holy Spirit one and the same? You add "the" before faith and then try to connect it to the Councilor, as though they are one and the same.

 

[Van]

I want to make a completely different "absurd" claim ... that God's "elect/chosen" are always chosen for salvation and service, and God chooses for no other reason. That is why I want SCRIPTURE rather than unsupported OPINIONS. Even if an opinion is correct, only Scripture backed opinions can help me prove or disprove who GOD SAYS His elect/chosen are.

I am starting with an examination of the claim made by others that "God's elect" are ALWAYS the nation of Israel (saved and unsaved) and never "gentiles". The OP lists all of the verses containing the Hebrew word that means "chosen/elect" so I can start looking at who SCRIPTURE says the chosen are. So far God has not called anyone His chosen that does not have a heart that belongs to God, but I have more verses to examine in detail.

I do intend to get on to the NT "chosen/elect" after I have settled who the OT "chosen/elect" are and whether the "chosen" are ever "unsaved". Clearly God uses the unsaved, but God never called Pharaoh "God's chosen".

Apology accepted. When God chooses a person individually or a group corporately, it is always for a purpose, which broadly might be stated as implementing His Redemption Plan. Some are chosen to fulfill a negative role, i.e. Pharaoh or Judas, and some are chosen to fulfill a positive roll, i.e. Peter, Paul and Mary.

We, born anew believers were certainly chosen for salvation, but also for service as ambassador of Christ with the message of reconciliation.

 

[percho]

Are you making faith and the Holy Spirit one and the same? You add "the" before faith and then try to connect it to the Councilor, as though they are one and the same.

And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, so that the law became our child-conductor -- to Christ, that by faith we may be declared righteous, and the faith having come, no more under a child-conductor are we,

Now what took place that translated them from being under law the schoolmaster, to being under grace? What took place with Jesus that allowed them to become sons of God by receiving the Spirit of Adoption.

Was it not, the Son becoming obedient unto death even the death of the cross resulting in being raised from the dead, exalted on high and given a name above all names.

I believe faith is a God characteristic and is from God.
I believe before the foundation of the world God, had faith, that his Son born of woman, in the likeness of sinful flesh, with nothing but the promise of God, hope of eternal life, would be obedient unto pouring out his life unto death. I believe the Son born of woman had faith in the Father and the promise of God. Consider:

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Romans 1:16,17 Hab 2:4 The just shall live by his faith. Prophesy fulfilled? Who is the only just one ever born of woman? Notice in the NT 3 times, his, is left out. R 1:17 G 3:11 H 10:38

That is all about God the Father and the Son of God.

I do not think faith is belief we have mustered up I believe it is what God believed.

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 16:7

The Comforter, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, the Spirit of Adoption was made available because of, Obedience of Faith. IMHO

 

[AustinC]

And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, so that the law became our child-conductor -- to Christ, that by faith we may be declared righteous, and the faith having come, no more under a child-conductor are we,

Now what took place that translated them from being under law the schoolmaster, to being under grace? What took place with Jesus that allowed them to become sons of God by receiving the Spirit of Adoption.

Was it not, the Son becoming obedient unto death even the death of the cross resulting in being raised from the dead, exalted on high and given a name above all names.

I believe faith is a God characteristic and is from God.
I believe before the foundation of the world God, had faith, that his Son born of woman, in the likeness of sinful flesh, with nothing but the promise of God, hope of eternal life, would be obedient unto pouring out his life unto death. I believe the Son born of woman had faith in the Father and the promise of God. Consider:

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Romans 1:16,17 Hab 2:4 The just shall live by his faith. Prophesy fulfilled? Who is the only just one ever born of woman? Notice in the NT 3 times, his, is left out. R 1:17 G 3:11 H 10:38

That is all about God the Father and the Son of God.

I do not think faith is belief we have mustered up I believe it is what God believed.

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 16:7

The Comforter, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, the Spirit of Adoption was made available because of, Obedience of Faith. IMHO

You believe faith is an attribute of God. Yet, there is no indication God needed faith. Indeed, God's definition of faith would show you are wrong.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Does God not see? Must God hope for something He cannot see? No. God has no need to exhibit faith.

Faith is a fruit of the Spirit. It is evidenced in the life of God's adopted children. Indeed, we don't "muster" up faith, yet it isn't "what God believed" either. God needs no faith.

Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

I see no connection between John 16:7 and faith. I see Jesus declaring to his disciples that he would send the Holy Spirit to his children when he left the earth. We see this in Acts 2 at Pentacost.

You seem to view Jesus as less than God, percho. Do you hold the view that Jesus is a created being of God that God calls a son?

Your thoughts on faith do not jibe with scripture, in my opinion. They seem off.

 

[percho]

You believe faith is an attribute of God. Yet, there is no indication God needed faith. Indeed, God's definition of faith would show you are wrong.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Does God not see? Must God hope for something He cannot see? No. God has no need to exhibit faith.

Faith is a fruit of the Spirit. It is evidenced in the life of God's adopted children. Indeed, we don't "muster" up faith, yet it isn't "what God believed" either. God needs no faith.

Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

I see no connection between John 16:7 and faith. I see Jesus declaring to his disciples that he would send the Holy Spirit to his children when he left the earth. We see this in Acts 2 at Pentacost.

You seem to view Jesus as less than God, percho. Do you hold the view that Jesus is a created being of God that God calls a son?

Your thoughts on faith do not jibe with scripture, in my opinion. They seem off.

for the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar, to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood which maketh atonement for the soul. Lev 17:11 YLT

Would you agree that is speaking of the sinless Jesus and Jesus alone and the reason it is his blood that id given is because that is where his life being was. For atonement of sinful souls the life of a sinless soul had to be given.

Exactly what are we speaking as life? If it is not to be or not to be what is it? Why does God compare himself as the living God relative to idols. The Son of God was sent because of the death and it was foreordained before the foundation of the world that he would die the death assigned Adam. See 1 Peter 1:18-20 The Son of God would be sent in the flesh, Rom 8:2 says in the likeness of sinful flesh, yet without sin as stated in Heb 4:15, born of woman.

Why born of woman? Now consider the Son of God:

Hebrews 5:7 who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared, through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience,

Even being the very Son of the living God what did the Son of God learn?

Does that look like faith to you? Did the Son learn, obedience of faith? Did the Son actually fear death? Not my will but thine and even after saying that sweated blood. Fear?

As stated, Before God said let there be light, Christ, as of a lamb unblemished and unspotted, was going to die. God had before placed him to die (Atonement, place of shelter, mercy seat) 1 Peter 1:19-20 also See Romans 3:24,25 YLT being declared righteous freely by His grace through the redemption that in Christ Jesus, whom God (the Father of the Son) did set forth a mercy seat, through the faith in his blood,

Because of the genitive case Mark 11:22 should read ; And Jesus answering saith to them, 'Have faith of God;

God the Father of the Son of God had faith, belief the Son would be obedient unto death even the death of the cross. The life being in the blood and all that.

When the Son committed his spirit into the hands of the Father, the very life, of the Son was in the hands of the Father.

Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;
Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
1 Peter 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Now I will ask a couple more questions.

Did Satan the devil exist as Satan the devil before God said Let there be light?
Had Satan the devil done any works prior to God saying let there be light?
Prior to God saying let there be light was the Son of God going to be born of woman, manifested as the Son of Man?
Before God said let there be light what was God going to do about Satan the devil?

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Heb 2:14

Did God have a plan before the foundation of the world? To do what? Did it require, Obedience of Faith?

Does sinful man benefit from that plan? Is the benefit to sinful man the means by which the plan will be carried out.

The yet God of the peace shall be crushing the Satan under the feet of you all in swiftness. The grace of the Lord of us, Jesus Christ with you all. Amen Romans 16:20

 

[AustinC]

for the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar, to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood which maketh atonement for the soul. Lev 17:11 YLT

Would you agree that is speaking of the sinless Jesus and Jesus alone and the reason it is his blood that id given is because that is where his life being was. For atonement of sinful souls the life of a sinless soul had to be given.

Exactly what are we speaking as life? If it is not to be or not to be what is it? Why does God compare himself as the living God relative to idols. The Son of God was sent because of the death and it was foreordained before the foundation of the world that he would die the death assigned Adam. See 1 Peter 1:18-20 The Son of God would be sent in the flesh, Rom 8:2 says in the likeness of sinful flesh, yet without sin as stated in Heb 4:15, born of woman.

Why born of woman? Now consider the Son of God:

Hebrews 5:7 who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared, through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience,

Even being the very Son of the living God what did the Son of God learn?

Does that look like faith to you? Did the Son learn, obedience of faith? Did the Son actually fear death? Not my will but thine and even after saying that sweated blood. Fear?

As stated, Before God said let there be light, Christ, as of a lamb unblemished and unspotted, was going to die. God had before placed him to die (Atonement, place of shelter, mercy seat) 1 Peter 1:19-20 also See Romans 3:24,25 YLT being declared righteous freely by His grace through the redemption that in Christ Jesus, whom God (the Father of the Son) did set forth a mercy seat, through the faith in his blood,

Because of the genitive case Mark 11:22 should read ; And Jesus answering saith to them, 'Have faith of God;

God the Father of the Son of God had faith, belief the Son would be obedient unto death even the death of the cross. The life being in the blood and all that.

When the Son committed his spirit into the hands of the Father, the very life, of the Son was in the hands of the Father.

Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;
Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
1 Peter 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Now I will ask a couple more questions.

Did Satan the devil exist as Satan the devil before God said Let there be light?
Had Satan the devil done any works prior to God saying let there be light?
Prior to God saying let there be light was the Son of God going to be born of woman, manifested as the Son of Man?
Before God said let there be light what was God going to do about Satan the devil?

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Heb 2:14

Did God have a plan before the foundation of the world? To do what? Did it require, Obedience of Faith?

Does sinful man benefit from that plan? Is the benefit to sinful man the means by which the plan will be carried out.

The yet God of the peace shall be crushing the Satan under the feet of you all in swiftness. The grace of the Lord of us, Jesus Christ with you all. Amen Romans 16:20

You seem to view Jesus as less than God, percho. Do you hold the view that Jesus is a created being of God that God calls a son?

 

[Dave G]

You seem to view Jesus as less than God, percho.

I've never known Pancho to view the Lord Jesus as anyone less than God in the flesh, Austin.
But then I've only been here for a little over two years.

As for faith being an attribute of God, I do not see it as one;
But I do see that true faith was created outside of us as mere men...

Was it not authored and finished by its creator, Jesus Christ?
Hebrews 12:2.

 

[AustinC]

I've never known Pancho to view the Lord Jesus as anyone less than God in the flesh, Austin.
But then I've only been here for a little over two years.

As for faith being an attribute of God, I do not see it as one;
But I do see that true faith was created outside of us as mere men...

Was it not authored and finished by its creator, Jesus Christ?
Hebrews 12:2.

I have made no claim regarding percho. I only ask because he continually differentiates between God and the Son of God.

Second, being author and finisher of faith means that faith is a creation of God, which he gives to his elect and then grows in his children.

I see no evidence that God needed faith himself, as God. When we read of our legacy of faith in Hebrews 11 we never see God needing faith. Instead, we see chosen people expressing the faith that God gave them to believe.

Since Jesus is one with the Father, there was no need for Him to have faith. He simply heard the Father and the did what the Father told him.

To me, stating Jesus needed faith is an attempt to reduce Jesus position as being one with the Father.

 

[percho]

You seem to view Jesus as less than God, percho. Do you hold the view that Jesus is a created being of God that God calls a son?

I believe the Lord Jesus Christ was/will be, the Word made flesh, Emmanuel. The Son of the Living God.

What in post 95 do you disagree with?

 

[AustinC]

I believe the Lord Jesus Christ was/will be, the Word made flesh, Emmanuel. The Son of the Living God.

What in post 95 do you disagree with?

You still skirted the question.

Do you hold the view that Jesus is a created being of God that God calls a son?