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God's knowledge debate

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freeatlast

New Member
I see the old chestnut of God being in the future because He is outside of time being hoisted yet again. This is simply a fiction, with no scriptural support. What if just like we have "time" in the physical universe, created when the universe was created, God has eternal time, an attribute of His nature. Yes there is no support for that one either, but one conjecture cut out of whole cloth must be as valid as the next. See the problem?

I know this was not to me but I would like to respond. A little difficult for me to follow all that, but I do believe that God does not live outside of time. I believe time is a product of the existence of God. Not the ticking of the clock as we determine time, but any period which something or someone is and God has always been so time has always been.
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
I think you meant to say "He limits his action while remaining unlimited in ability.
That maybe an even better way to put it. :thumbs:

I have not seen, or perhaps recall, how you addressed that Peter said Jesus was all knowing, yet Jesus did not know the time of His return. I say this demonstrates that when we see the phrase, all knowing, it does not mean everything imaginable, it simply means what the author had in view, such as here Jesus knowing everything about Peter's heart, or perhaps everything about the hearts of those He encountered.
It is the same answer as the statement above. "Jesus limited his action (to know all) while remaining unlimited in ability." Jesus could have called angles to tend to him but didn't in the same way he could have known every detail but didn't. I don't think we disagree on this point, do you?
 
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Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Reply to Freeatlast,

I know this was not to me but I would like to respond. A little difficult for me to follow all that, but I do believe that God does not live outside of time. I believe time is a product of the existence of God. Not the ticking of the clock as we determine time, but any period which something or someone is and God has always been so time has always been.

Yes, we seem to share in our conjecture. Physical time was created according to the Bible, but that does not preclude supernatural "time" from being an attribute of God.
 

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
I see the old chestnut of God being in the future because He is outside of time being hoisted yet again. This is simply a fiction, with no scriptural support.
...while it is called, Today...Heb. 3:13.
 

Bronconagurski

New Member
Psalm 147:5, Hebrews 4:13, Job 23:10, Psalm 103:14, Psalm 139:23,24, John 21:17, Proverbs 15:3, Genesis 16:13, Romans 11:33-36, I John 3:20, Job 42:2, Psalm 42:2, Psalm 139, Proverbs 15:3, Jeremiah 16:17, Acts 1:24, Job 37:16

There are some things that may be difficult, but that doesn't negate the very clear biblical teaching that God "knows everything." One may say that God doesn't remember our sins. Sure, he doesn't "bring to mind" our sins. That doesn't mean he doesn't have knowledge of them. To teach this would negate ALL the other passages that say that God knows everything. It would also be reading something into the text that isn't there. It doesn't say God forgets. It doesn't say that God no longer knows. It says "remember no more." Any interpretation that teaches that God forgets is eisegesis.


The above is a typical assertion made by those who deny God is all powerful and does what He says. The doctrine of inherent omniscience does not teach God unintentionally “forgets.” The doctrine states He intentional removes the knowledge from His mind and remembers it no more forever. He puts the knowledge out of his mind.

Next we have the assertion the Bible teaches God knows everything. No verse or passage says or suggests this fiction. Not one. The Bible does say God is all knowing, but men have added God is all knowing about everything. This is simply adding to scripture.
They choose to define “all” as referring to everything imaginable in these verses, but define “all” to mean all of whatever group or subject the author has in mind elsewhere in scripture. Thus the doctrine is incoherent.

Does Psalm 147:5 say God’s understanding is infinite? No. The best translation of the word is innumerable. Which means it is beyond our ability to measure, thus unfathomable and unsearchable. But to conclude that understanding beyond our understanding is infinite is illogical and unnecessary. Thus an example of eisegesis.

Hebrews 4:13 refers to our thoughts and hidden motives being laid bare to God, and does not address two issues. Does God obtain, i.e search us, all the time or does He sometimes not search our hearts. The verse does not say. Does this knowledge of His creatures include creatures in existence, or does it extend to creatures not yet created. The verse does not say. So to conclude this verse supports the “everything imaginable” doctrine is again an example of eisegesis.

We could plow through all the listed verses and come to the same “where is the beef” conclusion, yet these verses were posted as if they actually supported the false doctrine.
Poole says it well:

What Isaiah says (Isa_40:26) with the words, “because of the greatness of might, and as being strong in power,” and (Isa_40:28) “His understanding is unsearchable,” is here asserted in Psa_147:5 (cf. Psa_145:3): great is our Lord, and capable of much (as in Job_37:23, שַׂגִּיא כֹּחַ), and to His understanding there is no number, i.e., in its depth and fulness it cannot be defined by any number. What a comfort for the church as it traverses its ways, that are often so labyrinthine and entangled! Its Lord is the Omniscient as well as the Almighty One. Its history, like the universe, is a work of God's infinitely profound and rich understanding. It is a mirror of gracious love and righteous anger. The patient sufferers (עֲנָוִים) He strengthens (מְעֹודֵד as in Psa_146:9); malevolent sinners (רְשָׁעִים), on the other hand, He casts down to the earth (עֲדֵי־אָרֶץ, cf. Isa_26:5), casting deep down to the ground those who exalt themselves to the skies.
 

Winman

Active Member
That maybe an even better way to put it. :thumbs:

It is the same answer as the statement above. "Jesus limited his action (to know all) while remaining unlimited in ability." Jesus could have called angles to tend to him but didn't in the same way he could have known every detail but didn't. I don't think we disagree on this point, do you?

I think it important to remember that Jesus performed no supernatural acts until after the Holy Spirit came upon him. All supernatural acts he performed were through the Spirit.

Lk 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

Lk 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

Lk 4:14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.

Lk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

Everything Jesus did, whether preaching, healing the sick, or performing miracles was done in the power of the Spirit. Before the Holy Spirit came upon Jesus after he was baptized, he did none of these things.
 

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
Come on, that has nothing to do with time. It is saying don't wait another minute or day.
It has everything to do with time. We live in the present. Now. Today. In eternity there is no "today." There will be nothing that we can call "today," as we know it.

When the trumpet of the Lord shall sound, and time shall be no more ... there will be no more yesterday, today or tomorrow. In other words, no moment by moment existence. It will be an eternal existence with no beginning and no end.

Stop trying to think of God as if He were a man.
 

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
Poole says it well:

What Isaiah says (Isa_40:26) with the words, “because of the greatness of might, and as being strong in power,” and (Isa_40:28) “His understanding is unsearchable,” is here asserted in Psa_147:5 (cf. Psa_145:3): great is our Lord, and capable of much (as in Job_37:23, שַׂגִּיא כֹּחַ), and to His understanding there is no number, i.e., in its depth and fulness it cannot be defined by any number. What a comfort for the church as it traverses its ways, that are often so labyrinthine and entangled! Its Lord is the Omniscient as well as the Almighty One. Its history, like the universe, is a work of God's infinitely profound and rich understanding. It is a mirror of gracious love and righteous anger. The patient sufferers (עֲנָוִים) He strengthens (מְעֹודֵד as in Psa_146:9); malevolent sinners (רְשָׁעִים), on the other hand, He casts down to the earth (עֲדֵי־אָרֶץ, cf. Isa_26:5), casting deep down to the ground those who exalt themselves to the skies.
:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
It has everything to do with time. We live in the present. Now. Today. In eternity there is no "today." There will be nothing that we can call "today," as we know it.

When the trumpet of the Lord shall sound, and time shall be no more ... there will be no more yesterday, today or tomorrow. In other words, no moment by moment existence. It will be an eternal existence with no beginning and no end.

Stop trying to think of God as if He were a man.

Not even close. Stop trying to think of man in science fiction terms. We will never cease to be human, and humans were designed WITH time to live in a real physical world.
 

freeatlast

New Member
It has everything to do with time. We live in the present. Now. Today. In eternity there is no "today." There will be nothing that we can call "today," as we know it.

When the trumpet of the Lord shall sound, and time shall be no more ... there will be no more yesterday, today or tomorrow. In other words, no moment by moment existence. It will be an eternal existence with no beginning and no end.

Stop trying to think of God as if He were a man.

How do you know? have you ever lived in eternity past?
 

Winman

Active Member
How do you know? have you ever lived in eternity past?

It can keep you up nights thinking about this stuff. For instance, I have often wondered if God has existed for trillions of years (actually forever), then why did he wait until just 6000 years ago (I am a young earther) to create man? Shouldn't all of this happened ages ago?

Back to the OP, but I am sure some have had these kinds of thoughts.
 

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
I know what the word eternal means, and I know that I've been given eternal life.

And here is where the Noncalvinist with his limited view [edit] argue with what is plainly revealed, and the Calvinist in faith accepts it.
 
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webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
So instead of the typical vitriol why not just answer the question?

Clearly you have no clue what eternal means (to go along with anthropology and time) as you have been backed into a corner you created with no escape.
 

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
That's not true.

I'm begotten of God, and I'm told that that which is begotten of God cannot sin, yet in this temporal existence, I sin a thousand times a day.

I'm told that Christ has raise me to sit with Him in heavenly places, yet in this temporal world, I have yet to be thus glorified.

I'm told I have been given eternal life, yet in this temporal world I have a beginning, and will have an end.

You're asking me to reconcile these things with your carnal mind, and they cannot be. I can tell you what we're told, and you cannot argue with that. Not intelligently. But I cannot make you believe what we're told.
 

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
And that's not vitriol, that's just the facts. You'll argue with God, and I will take Him at His word.
 
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