God's Purposes Thwarted?

[Benjamin]

What does anything you have said on this thread heretofore have to do with the subject matter of this thread?

Do you wish to share an opinion or are you trolling?

I shared my opinion here:

…or it is obvious to most here that the pole represents a loaded question and the author of it will childishly and rudely ignore any attempts to slit up the question and address the complexities of his hard determinist stance as he continues to use the ambiguity in the matter; thereby, he achieves his “in-your –face”/”talk to the hand” debate methods while offensively and un-biblically attributing evil and sin to a Holy God.


Luke, have you stopped beating your wife? Yes or No!


As for the others who would simply vote, well, maybe we are overrun with determinist of Luke’s stripe, maybe they are ignorant of the lack of logic in Luke’s question and/or enjoy his methods of avoiding complexities in the matter, but either way they are going along with Luke’s attempt to win a debate at all costs.

Skandelon:

Nothing can thwart a decree of God, whether permissive or decretive, because both are based in the certainty of God's omniscience. Thus, the affirmation of God decreeing all things to come to pass mustn't be understood as meaning that evil exists "because of God's decree." Instead, we must understand which decree is meant. This is why CLARITY on this subject is so vitally important.

Too often on this BB clarity is sacrificed for the sake of winning a point or sticking it to the opponent, but to what end? Is impugning the holiness of God, even unintentionally, in the effort to win a debate justified? Can we simply be clear with our use of terms when discussing such serious matters as God's holiness? Can we all agree to refrain from saying anything that could possibly be misinterpreted as blaming God for the sin and evil in this world?

Is that really too much to ask? Is that even a dividing point between Calvinistic and non-Calvinistis Baptists? I don't think so. I think is should be something on which we all agree, if we put down our axes and reason together as brethren.

Apparently it was too much to ask and this tread was created as a trolling device to continue presenting an argument with an unconscionable ambiguous statement within it.

But since you would rather glory in your intellectualism of starting such a tread and playing games why don't you just tell us if you have stopped beating your wife? Yes or No.

Have fun!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Lighten up on your perceived comical abilities which are really just insults and sarcasm.

Yes Ben but unfortunately you mistake who its pointed at. So you need to get a grip....go get a beer or something.

There is an old saying " A man who feels, views life as a tragedy. A man who thinks, views life as a comedy"

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Luke, have you stopped beating your wife? Yes or No!

Now thats hysterical:laugh:

 

[Benjamin]

Yes Ben but unfortunately you mistake who its pointed at. So you need to get a grip....go get a beer or something.

There is an old saying " A man who feels, views life as a tragedy. A man who thinks, views life as a comedy"

Some men will think and feel, others will just think to make a sport out of viewing life as a comedy. Yes, one can always hide their feelings behind a beer, I choose not to.

(Pro 10:23) It is as sport to a fool to do mischief: but a man of understanding hath wisdom.

 

[humblethinker]

Yes, everything happens EXACTLY as God always intended and purposed that they would happen.

The above statement seems a statement in support of and reflecting a strict deterministic view of reality. I don't think all 10 people that laid claim to this vote actually believe in determinism (maybe I'm wrong?).

To the following I address this question: Dr. Bob, Earth, Wind & Fire, Havensdad, J.D., jcjordan, JesusFan, Jon-Marc

In what ways does the bolded statement above not reflect or support a strict deterministic view of reality?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Some men will think and feel, others will just think to make a sport out of viewing life as a comedy. Yes, one can always hide their feelings behind a beer, I choose not to.

(Pro 10:23) It is as sport to a fool to do mischief: but a man of understanding hath wisdom.

And of course you still dont get what I told you already but I caution you on your calling people fools...."But anyone who says " you fool" will be in danger of the fire of hell

 

[Amy.G]

....but I caution you on your calling people fools...."But anyone who says " you fool" will be in danger of the fire of hell"

So you don't believe in eternal security? Or are you implying Ben isn't saved?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So you don't believe in eternal security? Or are you implying Ben isn't saved?

Are you judgeing me? LOL The quote was taken from Christs mouth so go ask him

 

[quantumfaith]

Have you guys noticed that only the reformed guys are voting here?

Let me tell you why- of course they will not admit it, but this is why:

They cannot admit that they believe that God's purposes are thwarted- but many of them do.

Is that not a MASSIVE difference between us? I think we should be able to work together and love each other- BUT let's face it- there view of God has God FAILING miserably concerning MOST of his purposes.

They believe God knew he would fail miserably and they believe that God is going to fix it all in the end- but this is a STRIKING, ENORMOUS difference between our view of God and there's.

It cannot be overstated.

Skandelon has not voted because he does not want the no-namers to know that he agrees with us- that EVERYTHING happens always EXACTLY as God has ALWAYS intended it to happen- inculding the bad things such as sin, unbelief and damnation of sinners.

EVERYTHING.

Luke, you are way too bright to use a textbook example of a loaded question.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yes, everything happens EXACTLY as God always intended and purposed that they would happen.

The above statement seems a statement in support of and reflecting a strict deterministic view of reality. I don't think all 10 people that laid claim to this vote actually believe in determinism (maybe I'm wrong?).

To the following I address this question: Dr. Bob, Earth, Wind & Fire, Havensdad, J.D., jcjordan, JesusFan, Jon-Marc

In what ways does the bolded statement above not reflect or support a strict deterministic view of reality?

Before I do that I need you to define to me what you think a strict deterministic view is?

And after you get done with that can you tell me what you think this passage of Scripture means ....
Isaiah 45:7

King James Version (KJV)

7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Lastly, can you tell me if "Evil" is the correct translation.....NIV says "I bring prosperity & create Disaster" ...... Anybody, Anybody (Bueler) LOL

Thanks

 

[humblethinker]

Before I do that I need you to define to me what you think a strict deterministic view is?

And after you get done with that can you tell me what you think this passage of Scripture means ....
Isaiah 45:7

King James Version (KJV)

7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Thanks

You are the one who said (voted), "Yes, everything happens EXACTLY as God always intended and purposed that they would happen."

Why would I need to explain such to you before you answer my question? I'm asking for clarity sake, to understand how that is not determinism (it seems you're implying that it is not). I think you answering the question as you understand it being asked would be informative for me, no?

 

[Amy.G]

Are you judgeing me? LOL The quote was taken from Christs mouth so go ask him

Was Jesus saying that if a saved person called someone a fool, he would go to hell?

You aimed it at Ben. Explain what you meant.

 

[Amy.G]

...... Anybody, Anybody (Bueler) LOL

Thanks

I appreciate humor but your jokes don't make any sense in the context of this serious subject.

 

[idonthavetimeforthis]

I read this today in Arthur Pink's book "The Sovereignty Of God" & thought it was good.

"How different is the God of the Bible from the God of modern Christendom! The conception of Deity which prevails most widely today, even among those who profess to give heed to the Scriptures, is a miserable caricature, a blasphemous travesty of the Truth. The God of the twentieth century is a helpless, effeminate being who commands the respect of no really thoughtful man. The God of the popular mind is the creation of maudlin sentimentality. The God of many a present-day pulpit is an object of pity rather than of awe-inspiring reverence. To say that God the Father has purposed the salvation of all mankind, that God the Son died with the express intention of saving the whole human race, and that God the Holy Spirit is now seeking to win the world to Christ; when, as a matter of common observation, it is apparent that the great majority of our fellowmen are dying in sin, and passing into a hopeless eternity; is to say that God the Father is disappointed, that God the Son is dissatisfied, and that God the Holy Spirit is defeated. We have stated the issue baldly, but there is no escaping the conclusion. To argue that God is "trying His best" to save all mankind, but that the majority of men will not let Him save them, is to insist that the will of the Creator is impotent, and that the will of the creature is omnipotent. To throw the blame, as many do, upon the Devil, does not remove the difficulty, for if Satan is defeating the purpose of God, then, Satan is Almighty and God is no longer the Supreme Being."

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I appreciate humor but your jokes don't make any sense in the context of this serious subject.

Yea well that is because you dont understand them......nor does Benny apparently. It was lost on both of you. So because you feel your under attack, then you retaliate. You are all retaliatiating because of being hurt or you think you are.....and I understand it. When I asked this board if they loved the brethren, what was your response?

Perhaps that was the wrong question.....It should have been, " Christian, who is your brother?" Whats your starting point sister?

Is it in 1 John 5:11-12

11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

I'm taking this very seriously Amy so I'm turning the other cheek. Your a sister to me & the Penecostalist I met today is a brother to me ..... why cause we both accept Christ as our Lord & Savior.....If we didnt , we would all be psychotic.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You are the one who said (voted), "Yes, everything happens EXACTLY as God always intended and purposed that they would happen."

Why would I need to explain such to you before you answer my question? I'm asking for clarity sake, to understand how that is not determinism (it seems you're implying that it is not). I think you answering the question as you understand it being asked would be informative for me, no?

All right....Ive experienced that different people have different consepts of what hard determinisn is. I would like to know what yours is before I give my answer....so we have clarity.

 

[Benjamin]

Before I do that I need you to define to me what you think a strict deterministic view is?

And after you get done with that can you tell me what you think this passage of Scripture means ....
Isaiah 45:7

King James Version (KJV)

7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Lastly, can you tell me if "Evil" is the correct translation.....NIV says "I bring prosperity & create Disaster" ...... Anybody, Anybody (Bueler) LOL

Thanks

A strict theological determinist view is one which suggests the cause and effect of all things and events (casual determination), including evil and sin, has an uninterrupted origin and attributes that origin to the Creator of the world, thereby logically attributing evil and sin directly to God.

A strict determinist might interpret a verse, such as Isa 45:7 to mean the origin/creation of evil comes from God and uses it as a proof-text to support their view. They attribute evil to God and to support their casual determinist’ position while ignoring the true nature of God revealed in other verses such as Deut 32:4 and James 1:13.

The strict determinist willingly sacrifices the truths that God is Only Good and no evil can come from Him to support his man-made doctrine at the expense of reaching a fatalistic theological view that God creatures do not have volition/abilities to choose apart from that which has been pre-determined for them before creation; thereby they attribute all things, including evil, to a deterministic creator whose character and attributes are not separated from evil and sin.

That said, there are a multitude of treads on Isa 45: 7 which have been started on this board by those who wish to support their fatalistic view by insisting God created/ is the author of evil. I am tired on having to defend the Nature of God on a professed Christian debate board which repeatedly “allows” such accusations against our Holy God all for the sake of equipping the opposition with an antagonistic un-biblical argument. Enough said.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

A strict theological determinist view is one which suggests the cause and effect of all things and events (casual determination), including evil and sin, has an uninterrupted origin and attributes that origin to the Creator of the world, thereby logically attributing evil and sin directly to God.

A strict determinist might interpret a verse, such as Isa 45:7 to mean the origin/creation of evil comes from God and uses it as a proof-text to support their view. They attribute evil to God and to support their casual determinist’ position while ignoring the true nature of God revealed in other verses such as Deut 32:4 and James 1:13.

The strict determinist willingly sacrifices the truths that God is Only Good and no evil can come from Him to support his man-made doctrine at the expense of reaching a fatalistic theological view that God creatures do not have volition/abilities to choose apart from that which has been pre-determined for them before creation; thereby they attribute all things, including evil, to a deterministic creator whose character and attributes are not separated from evil and sin.

That said, there are a multitude of treads on Isa 45: 7 which have been started on this board by those who wish to support their fatalistic view by insisting God created/ is the author of evil. I am tired on having to defend the Nature of God on a professed Christian debate board which repeatedly “allows” such accusations against our Holy God all for the sake of equipping the opposition with an antagonistic un-biblical argument. Enough said.

OK so where does it turn fatalistic?

 

[Benjamin]

OK so where does it turn fatalistic?

If that question was meant to be a joke:

(Pro 10:23) It is as sport to a fool to do mischief: but a man of understanding hath wisdom.

If not:

It is fatalistic in denying the True Nature of God. It is fatalistic to logically put the responsibility of evil (declaring a pre-deterministic creator of evil) on God, and the result of that determinist’ logic simply amounts to a denial of the creature to assume responsibility, it is the same as calling God a liar. It is fatalistic theology to rely on anything other than the existence of a Holy God/Creator that is Only Good. Why? Because all His righteous ways are judgment. Deut 32:4.


(1Jn 1:5) This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

(1Jn 1:6) If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

(1Jn 1:7) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

(1Jn 1:8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

(1Jn 1:9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

(1Jn 1:10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Do you think it was meant to be a joke?