Has dispensationalism contributed to mistaken worldviews, or is it the truth ?

[Iconoclast]

Yes, but the realities of the world can throw a bucket of cold water on our ideas and force us to reexamine them with less bias.

It might be better to see and believe revealed truth instead.
In the day of Noah they had not seen a worldwide flood before. That did not stop the deluge from coming at the appointed time.
Less bias would take the form of scriptural statements.
During ww2.......Hitler looked like he would fit the schemes of many prophecy charts. He has come and gone. Others thought that the Pope was the antichrist.

 

[kyredneck]

I also see a parenthesis in reverse from Dispensationalists. Israel is the parenthesis,

Lol, James I love the way you do your own thing, I wish more would do it. I believe the scriptures presents the old covenant as an addition, after the fact:

19 What then is the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise hath been made; and it was ordained through angels by the hand of a mediator. Gal 3

And then it was removed:

27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that have been made, that those things which are not shaken may remain. Heb 12

15 having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace; Eph 2

 

[Iconoclast]

The ultras my son and I have run into have also been pleasant and sincere. Providentially, I met one who gave me literature right during the two week block I was teaching the subject, so I was able to state their views accurately, from their own literature.

My son ran into one of their profs at an Evangelical Theological Society meeting, and the man did seem to hanker for a higher level of evangelical scholarship.
Far too many discussions here on the BB occur without true understanding of the opposite position.
I look forward to seeing what quotes you come up with. Another problem on the BB is insufficient knowledge of an opposing view, with insufficient sourcing. I count off on papers from students who exhibit these failures. It's not excusable at a college level--but then the BB is not yet college level.

I am curious what I will come up with myself....lol.
It has been awhile since I looked at my original sources and I want to re- study,re-visit the issue as if I was looking for the first time.....not so easy to do.
I might get to my house today or tomorrow and change out the books I have on hand....my first book will be Pentecost on things to come.....maybe one of my old Scofield bibles.
If I recall my steps.....it is when I looked for answers on certain texts which were ignored that I began to be more unsure....
I am thinking of the second half of eph2

 

[kyredneck]

Yes, but the realities of the world can throw a bucket of cold water on our ideas and force us to reexamine them with less bias.

...if only the CUFI types would reexamine their ideas of a "Greater Israel". A lot of well meaning Christians get played like a banjo string by the war industry and the politicians they own. It's usually the most war mongering Israel Firster candidate that Dispies in the U.S. will support, because, well, God will curse us if we're not willing to fall on the sword for Israel. Duh, Genesis 12:3 !

 

[kyredneck]

Has dispensationalism contributed to mistaken worldviews...

Absolutely it has:

"Christian Zionists Reach New Heights of Absurdity in Latest Anti-Palestinian Propaganda Video
03-07-2016
New Christian Zionist propaganda targeting millennials would be hilarious if it weren't so deceptive.

A Christian Zionist organization just released a brazen new video targeting U.S. millennials which compares global support for the Palestinian-led Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) campaign with the literal act of shooting a Bible – and equates the state of Israel with God......

.....The Israeli government recently revealed that it is earmarking $26 million in this year’s budget for the purpose of sabotaging and spying on BDS supporters and Muslim activists in the United States and Europe.

This new video, released by HaYovel as part of a contest organized by the Israel Video Network, appears to be the latest salvo in the anti-BDS onslaught – this time fired from the U.S. Christian Zionist camp.....

.....stunningly proclaims: “Most Palestinians aren’t oppressed. Those who are are oppressed by their own government. Israel provides them with work, free electricity, health care and loads of humanitarian aid. I was there and saw it.”

The video closes with the proclamation, “Don’t boycott God.”

While HaYovel – and the propaganda it produces – may seem fringe, the organization is part of a U.S. Christian Zionist camp that has real clout. The group was founded by a Tennessee couple, and its stated mission is to “take an active role in, and educate people about, the prophetic RESTORATION of the land of Israel that is happening TODAY!” [THERE IT IS - "GREATER ISRAEL"]

HaYovel is just one of 40 U.S.-based organizations that, aided by American taxpayers’ subsidies, have together donated over $200 million to ethnically cleanse Palestinians for the construction of illegal settlements.

HaYovel has collaborated with Christians United for Israel [CUFI], which received a glowing endorsement from the Israeli ambassador to the United States and has teamed up with powerful pro-Israel lobby organizations, including the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations. These alliances continue to grow even though the leaders of Christian Zionism profess profoundly anti-Semitic teachings, including that Jews should be instrumentalized to hasten Armageddon, upon which only Christians will be saved.

As many have pointed out, the political ideology of Christian Zionism is also deeply racist against Palestinians. In a statement released in 2006, heads of Palestinian churches in Jerusalem rejected Christian Zionism as “a worldview where the Gospel is identified with the ideology of empire, colonialism and militarism.”...."

 

[Yeshua1]

There has always been one saved people of God....

Spiritual jews, hiers of Abraham, are those whom received Yeshua as their Messiah, and they are spiritual isreal, while they are also part of the Church now...

God always has saved out a remanant of jews since time of Christ, and at His second coming, national Isreal shall be saved on that day...

Pre millinium then ushers in upon Earth, no distinctions between jews/gentiles/Isreal, all the saved are now enjoying reigning of Jesus

Final state ushered in after that time

 

[kyredneck]

....at His second coming, national Isreal shall be saved on that day...

ALL national Israel? Don't you Dispies teach that 2 out of 3 Jews will be killed in the 'Great Tribulation'?

 

[Baptist Believer]

God always has saved out a remanant of jews since time of Christ, and at His second coming, national Isreal shall be saved on that day...

Even those who are completely opposed to Jesus and His Kingdom?

What is "national Israel"? A political entity? An ethnic/religious heritage? Those who externally obey some of the Torah? Those who internally obey some of the Torah?

 

[kyredneck]

During ww2.......Hitler looked like he would fit the schemes of many prophecy charts.

He most definitely fits the scheme of the Historicist's charts as one of the 10 Germanic kings that would "hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and shall burn her utterly with fire".

A conservative, Historicist interpretation of the seven heads from 'A Brief Commentary On Revelation', by Edward H. Overby, A.B., B.D., D.D., then Professor at Lexington Baptist College (a sound conservative school which is now defunct, and sadly missed by many). Excerpts:

“The 7 kings each represent a kingdom or political power over which they reign. “7 heads”, “7 mountains”, “7 kings”, all point to the same truth, that there are 7 political powers which in order will control the beast government of Satan. Egypt was the first of the 7, followed in order by Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, and the Germanic tribes. Each is represented by a head, a mountain, a king.”

“In verses 12-14 the 10 horns are explained. The 10 horns represent 10 kings, 12, which represent 10 kingdoms. In the time of John these 10 “have received no kingdom as yet.” Since this is also true of the 7th head, verse 10, and the only one that had not controlled the beast up to John's time, then it follows that the 10 horns must be on the 7th head. The 7th head with ten horns which was to come and rule the beast after John's day is different from all the heads before it. This is one head having the same basic civilization and being the same basic people, the Germanic tribes, yet they are many, 10 horns. The Germanic tribes were divided politically into a number of separate governments ruling at the time. There were 10 that originally set up kingdoms in the former Roman empire. These ten developed and changed in many ways throughout history. They were divided and subdivided into many many kingdoms and they consolidated and united and conquered so that they were just a few kingdoms. Their boundaries have changed greatly through the years. These changes we have mentioned are of no significance as far as the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation are concerned. The changes have confused some as to the identity of the 10 horns.”

More excerpts from Brother Overbey's book, 'A Brief Commentary On Daniel':

“The beasts representing the governments of Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome, (Rome is first ruled by the Caesars and then the Germanic tribes) have been presented describing them in a very general way......”

“The ten horns represent kings and their kingdoms which will take over the kingdom of Rome. Ten Germanic tribes did this. They were the Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Vandals, Franks, Burgundians, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Alamanni, and the Lombards.”

 

[Yeshua1]

Even those who are completely opposed to Jesus and His Kingdom?

What is "national Israel"? A political entity? An ethnic/religious heritage? Those who externally obey some of the Torah? Those who internally obey some of the Torah?

God has always had reserved unto Himself a faithful Jewish remnant that he saved out from among national isreal...
There is national ethnic Isreal, Jews born of the Flesh, and saved Jews, who received yeshua, who are spiritual isreal...

ANY Jew saved before the second cooming of Jesus saved like any gentile, by Christ, its just that at His returning, God also makes them back hos own nation and people in THAt Day!

 

[Yeshua1]

ALL national Israel? Don't you Dispies teach that 2 out of 3 Jews will be killed in the 'Great Tribulation'?

Many, both Jews and gentiles will die during that time....

Those Jews who remain alive at the second coming will see Him whom they pierced, mourn over him, and shall be restored back to God, as they will accept him as their real messiah now!

 

[Baptist Believer]

God has always had reserved unto Himself a faithful Jewish remnant that he saved out from among national isreal...

So the majority of "national Israel" (whatever you mean by that) is not faithful, nor reserved by God? (BTW, please note the spelling of "Israel.")

There is national ethnic Isreal, Jews born of the Flesh, and saved Jews, who received yeshua, who are spiritual isreal...

You keep throwing out the word "national." Do you mean that to be the political state formed in 1947 in Palestine?

ANY Jew saved before the second cooming of Jesus saved like any gentile, by Christ,

I agree.

...its just that at His returning, God also makes them back hos own nation and people in THAt Day!

Even the unrepentant ones who have continually rejected Jesus and His Kingdom?

Will there be a distinction between ethnic Jews (physical descendants of Abraham) and other peoples (spiritual descendants of Abraham) in God's final economy?

 

[kyredneck]

BTW, please note the spelling of "Israel"

Yesh is notorious for his spelling prowess and never providing scripture to back up his claims.

 

[John I Morris]

Yes, I think so. But I would have to know which type of Dispensationalism you are talking about.

Darbyism?

Scofieldism?

Larkinism?

Bullingerism?

Ruckmanism?

Ryrie’s Dispensationalism?

Bock's?

Dispensationalism covers the entire spectrum from the mild, Progressive Dispensationalism of Bock, through the Revised Dispensationalism of Ryrie and Walvood, the Classic Dispensationalism of Scofield and Chafer, the original Dispensationalism of Darby, and the Hyper Dispensationalism of Larkin and the Ultra Dispensationalism of Bullinger, Ruckman and others.

Seems like a lot to discuss.

I believe that we would do well to stay away from any brand of "Hyper", so if we may, lets rule those out of this discussion.

 

[kyredneck]

I believe that we would do well to stay away from any brand of "Hyper", so if we may, lets rule those out of this discussion.

I'm curious as to what you consider to be hyper.

To me any position that places the Jews on a pedestal on account of their DNA is hyper.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes, but the realities of the world can throw a bucket of cold water on our ideas and force us to reexamine them with less bias.

Hello BaptistB,

How did the two world wars throw cold water on these verses?
psalm22:
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

28 For the kingdom is the Lord's: and he is the governor among the nations.

29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

or from psalm 72;
8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.

9 They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust.

10 The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts.

11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.
it speaks of kings, His enemies

 

[Baptist Believer]

How did the two world wars throw cold water on these verses?

I am simply speaking about the historical shift away from postmillennial thought, not sharing my own view. If you don't recall, I pointed out that if forced to describe my position, I would probably say I am amillennial, but I do not reject postmillennial positions at all. I still believe it is a viable viewpoint.

I am quite agnostic about many parts of eschatology except for a rejection of dispensationalism, insistence upon a bodily resurrection and a reuniting of the heaven and earth, and conditional immortality.

 

[HankD]

This is one of the areas in which I part company with both sides.

I see National Israel as being distinct from the "Church" but see Spiritual Israel as the Olive Tree, the Gates through the Wall of the Heavenly City, and God again dealing with National Israel through tribulation while saying that some (perhaps many) of the Old Testament promises made to Israel are being fulfilled in the "Church" which Paul calls "The Israel of God."

But maintaining that distinction is often difficult as the line between the two is often blurred.

A mild disagreement. I still hold that Israel and the church are distinct, not separate but distinct.
Covenant - Israel - circumcision (males only).
Covenant - church - baptism (male, female, Jew, Gentile).

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Both the church and Israel are metaphorically spoken of in the infrastructure of the New Jerusalem:

Revelation 21
2 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

I do believe that restored/redeemed Israel will hold an important place in the structure of the millennium.

Zechariah 8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

I am reluctant to go any further, though peace and civility has been requested it probably will not last but I hope I'm wrong - I haven't read through the entire thread yet.

Will folks be able to issue unkind "gotcha" scenarios with what any dispensationalist says? Yes.
Vice versa is true and what will probably happen is that this will be another ping-pong thread.

Yes I am a pessimist as the evidence is overwhelming.

HankD

 

[Yeshua1]

I am simply speaking about the historical shift away from postmillennial thought, not sharing my own view. If you don't recall, I pointed out that if forced to describe my position, I would probably say I am amillennial, but I do not reject postmillennial positions at all. I still believe it is a viable viewpoint.

I am quite agnostic about many parts of eschatology except for a rejection of dispensationalism, insistence upon a bodily resurrection and a reuniting of the heaven and earth, and conditional immortality.

Think thsat the prominenet view held by ECF was historical Pre Mil, and MANY calvinists/reformed have held to that viewpoint, including Spurgeon himself!

 

[Iconoclast]

I am simply speaking about the historical shift away from postmillennial thought, not sharing my own view. If you don't recall, I pointed out that if forced to describe my position, I would probably say I am amillennial, but I do not reject postmillennial positions at all. I still believe it is a viable viewpoint.

I am quite agnostic about many parts of eschatology except for a rejection of dispensationalism, insistence upon a bodily resurrection and a reuniting of the heaven and earth, and conditional immortality.

Yes.... I find myself in a similar situation. I cannot reconcile these kind of verses in a way that remains consistent. Postmill seems to speak to this as it is optimistic.
This presupposes some parts of the New testament were fulfilled already, and there is only a small amount left in front of us until the last day.