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Has dispensationalism contributed to mistaken worldviews, or is it the truth ?

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StefanM

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I used to be a dispensationalist, probably due to the Ryrie Study Bible.

I am no longer a dispensationalist, but I could go for non-dispensational premillenialism (including the rapture in the midst of the Tribulation.)

Otherwise, I would be an amillennialist.

Postmillenialism died our good reason. It's not tenable. The church is not expanding on worldwide scale in sufficient degrees to completely transform the world.
 

John of Japan

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I draw a distinction between "hyper" and "ultra." I don't think Larkin is in (or anywhere near) the Bullinger/Ruckman position. (Ruckman can find more "dispensations" in the book of Acts than I can find in the whole bible!)
Actually, Ruckman is not even in the conversation in the literature nowadays. Dispensational authors don't even mention him--thank the Lord! :Geek
But Larkin is a gap theorist and links the dispensations to the days of the creation week. He seems to go a bit beyond the Classic dispensationalism as it is commonly understood but falls far, far short of Bullinger or Ruckman (who, oddly enough, heaps great praise on Larkin even those he believed the OT saints were saved by Grace through faith while Ruckman believes they were saved by works - and not to mention that Larkin often quoted from those "modern perversions" instead of the KJV). :)
I see your point about Larkin. Love his charts though! The man could really produce.

Ryrie uses the term ultra and lumps them all together (ignoring Ruckman). He points to the Berean Bible Society, based very close to us in Germantown, WI, as the leaders nowadays. This is Cornelius Stam and J. C. O'Hair's group, though they are both dead now. They even have a Bible college in Grand Rapids, Grace Bible College, which is trying to become mainstream. (My son and I have both interacted with these folk.)
 

Iconoclast

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I believe John 14, Ephesians 2, and Galatians 6 are referring to the unity of believers in the New Testament economy. There will not be a Jewish Church and a Gentile Church but we will all be members of One Family (of God) One Body, with One Lord, One Faith, and One Baptism.
This unity is to me a key issue. I think Kyred and others see it as where the rubber meets the road. Others will also jump in later in the day.
 

Iconoclast

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I used to be a dispensationalist, probably due to the Ryrie Study Bible.

I am no longer a dispensationalist, but I could go for non-dispensational premillenialism (including the rapture in the midst of the Tribulation.)

Otherwise, I would be an amillennialist.

Postmillenialism died our good reason. It's not tenable. The church is not expanding on worldwide scale in sufficient degrees to completely transform the world.
I can make a defense of postmill teaching, but this thread is to wide from the get go to do that here.....I like the good imput so far!

what issues became troublesome to you SM.
 

Iconoclast

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Actually, Ruckman is not even in the conversation in the literature nowadays. Dispensational authors don't even mention him--thank the Lord! :Geek

I see your point about Larkin. Love his charts though! The man could really produce.

Ryrie uses the term ultra and lumps them all together (ignoring Ruckman). He points to the Berean Bible Society, based very close to us in Germantown, WI, as the leaders nowadays. This is Cornelius Stam and J. C. O'Hair's group, though they are both dead now. They even have a Bible college in Grand Rapids, Grace Bible College, which is trying to become mainstream. (My son and I have both interacted with these folk.)
I have some of Stams books....they might be the last ones I have read in awhile.
There was a premill elder with the last name of miller from wisconsin who I met for lunch and he was trying to get me back into premill/dispy with his news letters...we had some nice exchanges in person years ago and then he would mail me....I believe it was from a church in Germantown....small world.
 

John of Japan

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I have some of Stams books....they might be the last ones I have read in awhile.
There was a premill elder with the last name of miller from wisconsin who I met for lunch and he was trying to get me back into premill/dispy with his news letters...we had some nice exchanges in person years ago and then he would mail me....I believe it was from a church in Germantown....small world.
Yeah, that would be the ultras. Their number has remained small because of some huge holes in their exegesis.

The problem with Stam and O'Hair is that neither one had a theological education, so they made some very basic mistakes. Historical footnote: Stam was the brother of John Stam, the martyr killed with his wife Betty by the Communists in China.
 

John of Japan

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I have some of Stams books....they might be the last ones I have read in awhile.
There was a premill elder with the last name of miller from wisconsin who I met for lunch and he was trying to get me back into premill/dispy with his news letters...we had some nice exchanges in person years ago and then he would mail me....I believe it was from a church in Germantown....small world.
Yeah, that would be Stam's successors. I've been given literature by a member, and driven by their headquarters building, though I didn't go in.
 

Iconoclast

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Yeah, that would be Stam's successors. I've been given literature by a member, and driven by their headquarters building, though I didn't go in.
The elder was pleasant and quite sincere. I thanked him for offering me his newsletter. He could not understand why I questioned it now. I know he was trying to help.....I respected him for that.
His co elder was enjoying the questions and the back and forth dialogue.

I am glad you clarified Mr.Stam and where he is coming from. He did not seem to speak for the core teaching.Thank you for being objective on that. That is where many discussions go south.
If I quoted Mr. STAM....and went against his teaching as if it spoke for the mainstream it would cloud the issue rather than clarify.


I am getting a bit rusty on it as I have been studying other aspects of the Kingdom .
I will have to brush up and offer some main quotes and why they are open to questioning.
 

Baptist Believer

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I used to be a dispensationalist, probably due to the Ryrie Study Bible.
When I was making my journey from agnosticism, I used an NASB Ryrie Study Bible. I struggled for weeks with dispensationalism until I decided that Ryrie had not made his case with the texts he used. In my opinion, a plain reading of the Bible pointed away from dispensationalism to a more linear view where the Old and New Testament views of faith were tightly consistent.

I am no longer a dispensationalist, but I could go for non-dispensational premillenialism (including the rapture in the midst of the Tribulation.)
Growing up in the church, I heard all about "the rapture" and I assumed I would locate the teaching on it at some point through my journey in the scriptures. After about three trips from cover to cover, I looked up where the rapture was supposed to be taught. It was not convincing to me in the least. As far as I'm concerned, it is simply God's people meeting Jesus in the air as the citizens of a city would run out to meet a returning king.

Otherwise, I would be an millennialist.
If I were forced to describe my position, I would probably an amillennialist.

Postmillenialism died our good reason. It's not tenable.
Two world wars in the first half of the 20th century crushed the naive hopes of the postmillennial adherents.

The church is not expanding on worldwide scale in sufficient degrees to completely transform the world.
Perhaps, perhaps not. It's all in God's timing and providence. Most is happening out there than we can imagine. The Kingdom of God is larger than the church, but churches are national outgrowths of the Kingdom of God.

I have a friend who lives and ministers discreetly in a communist country. He keeps running into Christians. A typical scenario - He has to ride the bus because of circumstances outside of his control. A man sits next to him and whispers, "I think we have the same father." My friend immediately feels the presence of the Spirit weighing upon the moment and says, "I think so." His new brother, invites him to an address in a sketchy part of town. He goes over that evening and has to walk down an alleyway. There seem like 20 different doors that lead into buildings on each side. Suddenly a boy is with him in the alley and says in perfect Southern English, "You just passed it, its the green door." My friend looks back as sees the door and turns around to thank the child. The child is gone... somehow. He goes to the green door and knocks, is invited in and discovers he is in a home with a few dozen native Christians who have gathered to worship. He asks his host (the man from the bus) about the child. The man says he know of no child like that, but he grins, "it happens." He met with the church that night and did some teaching (he is an experienced pastor) and goes his way. He still meets with that congregation from time to time.

Other friends in Muslim countries tell me similar stories of conversions and visions. God is at work even in places where most Western church people cannot go.
 

Van

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I have not read this thread, but I thought the OP questions deserved our attempts to answer them.

What is the relationship of Israel to the Church? "All Israel" is not comprised on believing Jews, it is comprised of believing Jews and Gentiles. Thus the church is comprised all "All Israel." As Galatians 3 makes clear, believing Gentiles become children of the promise.

Are saved Gentiles to serve saved Jews?....ie,{ in the millenium, or eternal state, be specific, no strawmen here} No, in Christ there is no difference. We all serve our king, Jesus.


Is it all about OT Israel being raised up and restored? No, the millennium kingdom on Earth is about "All Israel" being governed by Jesus for 1000 years.

Was the Church always the main focus and Ot. Israel was a type of the church? No, the church and All Israel are united in Christ. See Galatians 3.

Do you understand Jesus as the True Israel? No Jesus is the King of Kings over All Israel.

Which are the top 3 books you would recommend on this issue? Galatians

Can you correctly present the other views without it being a strawman fest? No. Traditional Dispensationalism cannot be supported in light of Galatians 3. Amillennialism cannot be supported without claiming scripture does not mean what it says.
 

rsr

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Postmillennialism was once the dominant eschatology of American Baptists, at least in academia: B.H. Carroll, A.S. Strong, G.W. Truett, J.P. Boyce, for example. Amillennialism was the preferred theory in Southern Baptist academia after, as BB has pointed out, postmillenialism was knocked into a cocked hat by World War I.
 

Iconoclast

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World wars do not change the teaching of scripture.
Newspapers do not change the teaching of scripture.
God's purpose happens He has purposed.
 

rsr

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Yes, but systematic eschatology can be murky. Our beliefs are often influenced by what is happening around us. (And that doesn't just apply to eschatology.)
 

Iconoclast

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Yes, but systematic eschatology can be murky. Our beliefs are often influenced by what is happening around us. (And that doesn't just apply to eschatology.)
Hello rsr,
Yes.... I understand what you are saying....looking around us a case can be made that Islam will be the one world religion,believers will be beheaded.....a specialty of Islam...
Only the rapture can save us......
But then again. ....what if we are still the early church?
What if Israel nukes mecca,medina,yemen, and a few other Muslim enclaves?
Do we then modify our view again ?
If a position is taught it does not matter as much what we see with our limited vision ,but rather God will bring it to pass.
 

rsr

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Exactly.

"God, in His own time and in His own way, will bring the world to its appropriate end. According to His promise, Jesus Christ will return personally and visibly in glory to the earth; the dead will be raised; and Christ will judge all men in righteousness."

Beyond that I am not prepared to say. I have leanings on eschatology, but I cannot be dogmatic. The future is in God's hands; he has promised that Christ will return to finally put things right, and that's good enough for me.
 

JamesL

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I was raised in church with apparently not much Eschatological leaning except that Jesus would be coming with the sound of a trumpet to take away those who were living for Him, and the rest would be destroyed.

When I became a believer, it was through a book by Erwin Lutzer. Then I sort of "grew up" in the faith listening to Charles Stanley, MacArthur, Tony Evans, David Jeremiah. Read books by Walvoord, Ryrie, and others who were Dispensationalists.

I just went with their views peripherally because they had helped me learn about the cross of Christ, so I saw no reason to doubt their PreMil PreTrib Eschatology....

But there was a point I just couldn't ignore what I was seeing in scripture. I have a view similar to what TCassidy posited, but do not claim Dispensationalism anymore.

I see three groups of men throughout history, and a division within each group:
Israel - believers and unbelievers
Saints - Jews and Gentiles
Gentiles - believers and unbelievers

My pastor asked me if I see a distinction between Israel and the Church. I told him I thought it was asked from an improper paradigm because it's possible to be in both groups (a believing Jew).

I also see a parenthesis in reverse from Dispensationalists. Israel is the parenthesis, because God was "dealing" with all mankind first, then parenthetically called out Israel, and now they are cut off.

Abraham's ethnic descendants were given a parcel of land as an earthly inheritance. But Abraham's "seed" (who is Christ) has an eternal inheritance which He will share with His bride (those of the faith of Abraham).

As for Eschatology, I am firmly PreMil PostTrib. The man of sin will make war with the Saints. I see zero indication in scripture that Saints refers only to Jewish saints. Gentiles have been brought into one body with them
 
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JamesL

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Hello rsr,
Yes.... I understand what you are saying....looking around us a case can be made that Islam will be the one world religion,believers will be beheaded.....a specialty of Islam...
Only the rapture can save us......
But then again. ....what if we are still the early church?
What if Israel nukes mecca,medina,yemen, and a few other Muslim enclaves?
Do we then modify our view again ?
If a position is taught it does not matter as much what we see with our limited vision ,but rather God will bring it to pass.
Every believer since the cross could look at their current events and see the End Times unfolding before his eyes.

And there are cases where guys like Hagee are "adjusting" their view based on the latest development in the Middle East. Much better to trust God.
 

John of Japan

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The elder was pleasant and quite sincere. I thanked him for offering me his newsletter. He could not understand why I questioned it now. I know he was trying to help.....I respected him for that.
His co elder was enjoying the questions and the back and forth dialogue.
The ultras my son and I have run into have also been pleasant and sincere. Providentially, I met one who gave me literature right during the two week block I was teaching the subject, so I was able to state their views accurately, from their own literature.

My son ran into one of their profs at an Evangelical Theological Society meeting, and the man did seem to hanker for a higher level of evangelical scholarship.
I am glad you clarified Mr.Stam and where he is coming from. He did not seem to speak for the core teaching.Thank you for being objective on that. That is where many discussions go south.
If I quoted Mr. STAM....and went against his teaching as if it spoke for the mainstream it would cloud the issue rather than clarify.
Far too many discussions here on the BB occur without true understanding of the opposite position.
I am getting a bit rusty on it as I have been studying other aspects of the Kingdom .
I will have to brush up and offer some main quotes and why they are open to questioning.
I look forward to seeing what quotes you come up with. Another problem on the BB is insufficient knowledge of an opposing view, with insufficient sourcing. I count off on papers from students who exhibit these failures. It's not excusable at a college level--but then the BB is not yet college level. ;)
 

Baptist Believer

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World wars do not change the teaching of scripture.
Newspapers do not change the teaching of scripture.
God's purpose happens He has purposed.
Yes, but the realities of the world can throw a bucket of cold water on our ideas and force us to reexamine them with less bias.
 
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