Featured Has dispensationalism contributed to mistaken worldviews, or is it the truth ?

I used to be a dispensationalist, probably due to the Ryrie Study Bible.

I am no longer a dispensationalist, but I could go for non-dispensational premillenialism (including the rapture in the midst of the Tribulation.)

Otherwise, I would be an amillennialist.

Postmillenialism died our good reason. It's not tenable. The church is not expanding on worldwide scale in sufficient degrees to completely transform the world.

 

Actually, Ruckman is not even in the conversation in the literature nowadays. Dispensational authors don't even mention him--thank the Lord!

I see your point about Larkin. Love his charts though! The man could really produce.

Ryrie uses the term ultra and lumps them all together (ignoring Ruckman). He points to the Berean Bible Society, based very close to us in Germantown, WI, as the leaders nowadays. This is Cornelius Stam and J. C. O'Hair's group, though they are both dead now. They even have a Bible college in Grand Rapids, Grace Bible College, which is trying to become mainstream. (My son and I have both interacted with these folk.)

 

Yeah, that would be the ultras. Their number has remained small because of some huge holes in their exegesis.

The problem with Stam and O'Hair is that neither one had a theological education, so they made some very basic mistakes. Historical footnote: Stam was the brother of John Stam, the martyr killed with his wife Betty by the Communists in China.

 

Lol:

"Saw it right off". - Bear Claw

 

Yeah, that would be Stam's successors. I've been given literature by a member, and driven by their headquarters building, though I didn't go in.

 

When I was making my journey from agnosticism, I used an NASB Ryrie Study Bible. I struggled for weeks with dispensationalism until I decided that Ryrie had not made his case with the texts he used. In my opinion, a plain reading of the Bible pointed away from dispensationalism to a more linear view where the Old and New Testament views of faith were tightly consistent.

Growing up in the church, I heard all about "the rapture" and I assumed I would locate the teaching on it at some point through my journey in the scriptures. After about three trips from cover to cover, I looked up where the rapture was supposed to be taught. It was not convincing to me in the least. As far as I'm concerned, it is simply God's people meeting Jesus in the air as the citizens of a city would run out to meet a returning king.

If I were forced to describe my position, I would probably an amillennialist.

Two world wars in the first half of the 20th century crushed the naive hopes of the postmillennial adherents.

Perhaps, perhaps not. It's all in God's timing and providence. Most is happening out there than we can imagine. The Kingdom of God is larger than the church, but churches are national outgrowths of the Kingdom of God.

I have a friend who lives and ministers discreetly in a communist country. He keeps running into Christians. A typical scenario - He has to ride the bus because of circumstances outside of his control. A man sits next to him and whispers, "I think we have the same father." My friend immediately feels the presence of the Spirit weighing upon the moment and says, "I think so." His new brother, invites him to an address in a sketchy part of town. He goes over that evening and has to walk down an alleyway. There seem like 20 different doors that lead into buildings on each side. Suddenly a boy is with him in the alley and says in perfect Southern English, "You just passed it, its the green door." My friend looks back as sees the door and turns around to thank the child. The child is gone... somehow. He goes to the green door and knocks, is invited in and discovers he is in a home with a few dozen native Christians who have gathered to worship. He asks his host (the man from the bus) about the child. The man says he know of no child like that, but he grins, "it happens." He met with the church that night and did some teaching (he is an experienced pastor) and goes his way. He still meets with that congregation from time to time.

Other friends in Muslim countries tell me similar stories of conversions and visions. God is at work even in places where most Western church people cannot go.

 

I have not read this thread, but I thought the OP questions deserved our attempts to answer them.

What is the relationship of Israel to the Church? "All Israel" is not comprised on believing Jews, it is comprised of believing Jews and Gentiles. Thus the church is comprised all "All Israel." As Galatians 3 makes clear, believing Gentiles become children of the promise.

Are saved Gentiles to serve saved Jews?....ie,{ in the millenium, or eternal state, be specific, no strawmen here} No, in Christ there is no difference. We all serve our king, Jesus.


Is it all about OT Israel being raised up and restored? No, the millennium kingdom on Earth is about "All Israel" being governed by Jesus for 1000 years.

Was the Church always the main focus and Ot. Israel was a type of the church? No, the church and All Israel are united in Christ. See Galatians 3.

Do you understand Jesus as the True Israel? No Jesus is the King of Kings over All Israel.

Which are the top 3 books you would recommend on this issue? Galatians

Can you correctly present the other views without it being a strawman fest? No. Traditional Dispensationalism cannot be supported in light of Galatians 3. Amillennialism cannot be supported without claiming scripture does not mean what it says.

 

I was raised in church with apparently not much Eschatological leaning except that Jesus would be coming with the sound of a trumpet to take away those who were living for Him, and the rest would be destroyed.

When I became a believer, it was through a book by Erwin Lutzer. Then I sort of "grew up" in the faith listening to Charles Stanley, MacArthur, Tony Evans, David Jeremiah. Read books by Walvoord, Ryrie, and others who were Dispensationalists.

I just went with their views peripherally because they had helped me learn about the cross of Christ, so I saw no reason to doubt their PreMil PreTrib Eschatology....

But there was a point I just couldn't ignore what I was seeing in scripture. I have a view similar to what TCassidy posited, but do not claim Dispensationalism anymore.

I see three groups of men throughout history, and a division within each group:
Israel - believers and unbelievers
Saints - Jews and Gentiles
Gentiles - believers and unbelievers

My pastor asked me if I see a distinction between Israel and the Church. I told him I thought it was asked from an improper paradigm because it's possible to be in both groups (a believing Jew).

I also see a parenthesis in reverse from Dispensationalists. Israel is the parenthesis, because God was "dealing" with all mankind first, then parenthetically called out Israel, and now they are cut off.

Abraham's ethnic descendants were given a parcel of land as an earthly inheritance. But Abraham's "seed" (who is Christ) has an eternal inheritance which He will share with His bride (those of the faith of Abraham).

As for Eschatology, I am firmly PreMil PostTrib. The man of sin will make war with the Saints. I see zero indication in scripture that Saints refers only to Jewish saints. Gentiles have been brought into one body with them

 

Every believer since the cross could look at their current events and see the End Times unfolding before his eyes.

And there are cases where guys like Hagee are "adjusting" their view based on the latest development in the Middle East. Much better to trust God.

 

The ultras my son and I have run into have also been pleasant and sincere. Providentially, I met one who gave me literature right during the two week block I was teaching the subject, so I was able to state their views accurately, from their own literature.

My son ran into one of their profs at an Evangelical Theological Society meeting, and the man did seem to hanker for a higher level of evangelical scholarship.

Far too many discussions here on the BB occur without true understanding of the opposite position.

I look forward to seeing what quotes you come up with. Another problem on the BB is insufficient knowledge of an opposing view, with insufficient sourcing. I count off on papers from students who exhibit these failures. It's not excusable at a college level--but then the BB is not yet college level.

 

Yes, but the realities of the world can throw a bucket of cold water on our ideas and force us to reexamine them with less bias.