Honest, Studied and Converted free willers?

[Dale-c]

I thought questioning someone's salvation was against BB rules. This post obviously calls into question a person's salvation who believes in free will.

I have not question, personally anyones salvation.
That I believe is what the rule applies to.

By your implication, then questioning the salvation of mormons JWs and Catholics and Muslims is also prohibited.

I simply asked a doctrinal question. I have not made any personal attacks whatsoever.
If you are offended by what I have said, please show me from the Bible where I am wrong.

 

[Brother Bob]

These doctrines are so clear in the Bible that I just don't see anyway people can miss them for any other reason that those I have stated.

Isn't that what everyone says. We could start this whole debate over again and end up the exact same place we were before you started this slur.

Isa 42:16And I will bring the blind by a way [that] they knew not; I will lead them in paths [that] they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them.

The Lord is my guide.

 

[Dale-c]

Read them and weep.

Verses on the salvation of hopeless sinners should make us all weep.
When we realize that God has saved us by no merit of our own.

Please tell me this Bob:
If no man had ever exercised his free will to choose God, would God have then been incapable to save anyone?

Could man have overcome God's eternal plan by simply refusing?

I do not deny the means. man is COMMANDED to believe and the trust in Christ.
Without that belief, there is no salvation.
But without God's loving gift of faith, none of us would have ever believed.

BTW, Bob, no man that wants to be saved and that comes to Christ on Biblical terms will ever be cast out.

 

[Dale-c]

Isn't that what everyone says. We could start this whole debate over again and end up the exact same place we were before you started this slur.

This is not a "slur" it is an honest question.
Actually more targeted towards calvinists than to Armenians.
My question is that the Bible is so clear on this issue that I do not know how someone could honestly not believe them without one of the things I have stated.

 

[Brother Bob]

Please tell me this Bob:
If no man had ever exercised his free will to choose God, would God have then been incapable to save anyone?

Could man have overcome God's eternal plan by simply refusing?

I do not deny the means. man is COMMANDED to believe and the trust in Christ.
Without that belief, there is no salvation.
But without God's loving gift of faith, none of us would have ever believed.

BTW, Bob, no man that wants to be saved and that comes to Christ on Biblical terms will ever be cast out.

Do you believe God could of made us all without sin. There was a reason for making us "subject" to vanity. So He could recieve Glory and honor out of the "believers".


Jhn 6:29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

May I ask you a question?

1. If God in His soveriegnty wanted to make a man out of the dust of the earth, and make that man subject to vanity so that he could either choose good and live or choose evil and die. Could God do that if He wanted to?

 

[Dale-c]

Do you believe God could of made us all without sin. There was a reason for making us "subject" to vanity. So He could recieve Glory and honor out of the "believers".

You didn't answer the question.

As for God's reasons, He has not revealed that to us. I have my opinions but they are just not, opinions.

 

[Brother Bob]

Please tell me this Bob:
If no man had ever exercised his free will to choose God, would God have then been incapable to save anyone?

If God wanted to change His purpose in making man, sure he could save anyone.

 

[Brother Bob]

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Your answer to this scripture is?

Verses on the salvation of hopeless sinners should make us all weep.

Good thing God is more merciful or we would all be lost. Whosoever will. God's words.

 

[Dale-c]

Your answer to this scripture is?

I believe this verse. I believe that USWARD, that is God's elect, that none of us shall perish.

My interpretation of that verse is that it confirms God's Godhood.
Your interpretation seems to be that God would like for every man that ever lived or ever will live to be saved but of course he is unable to achieve His goals.

 

[AresMan]

All I can say after the many debates we have had on the scriptures is; Hogwash!

. . .

Read them and weep.

All of what and why does one believe and another does not?

 

[Humblesmith]

Are there any people who believe in free will and non predestination etc who are honest in what they believe?
I think so. I used to be like that myself. I Honestly believed I was right.

How about studied? This is where I am baffled.
The Bible so clearly teaches the doctrines an Grace and predestination that I don't see how anyone who has Studied can believe otherwise.

Are they truly converted?

Baby christians who are ignorant, as I was are one thing.
BUt what other explanation fits for those who have been in the ministry for 30 years and still deny God's sovereign grace other than the fact that the natural man cannot know these things?

Studied?
See Charles Hodge's Systematic Theology. He is a Calvinist, rather strict as I recall, and has a large section dealing with free will in his Theology. Also see W. G. T. Shedd's Dogmatic Theology, particularly volume 3, which he wrote about 16 years or so after he published the first two volumes (he was clarifying the public's misconceptions from the first two volumes). Shedd has a particularly good reconciliation of his Calvinism with free will (see vol. 3, starting at p.298). Lewis S. Chafer, in vol. 1 of his Systematic Theology, also has a decent section explaining primary and secondary causes as it relates to God and man. Compare this to the sections in The Westminster Confession that deal with secondary causes. Chafer also has a nice lengthy quote of Dr. John Dick, who tends to agree with Shedd and Hodge. N. Geisler, in Vol.3 of his Systematic Theology, explains how fallen humans are divinely enabled to receive the gospel, and gives several pages of quotes from church fathers to support him. You might also read J. O. Buswell, Stephen Charnock, Emery Bancroft, Charles Ryrie, Fred Howe, and Robert Lightner, all who teach Calvinism and believe in free will.

So yes, there are some who are studied and don't agree 100% with Beza, Gerstner, Sproul, White, Pink, and Edwards. My question is whether those who post less-than charitable, accusatory messages ever read anyone other than their pet theologians, particularly before they imply others to be unread and ignorant.

I suggest starting with Hodge. As I said, he has a lengthy section in Vol. 2 that reconciles free will with his Calvinism.

 

[npetreley]

Shedd has a particularly good reconciliation of his Calvinism with free will (see vol. 3, starting at p.298). Lewis S. Chafer, in vol. 1 of his Systematic Theology, also has a decent section explaining primary and secondary causes as it relates to God and man.

Sproul writes about primary and secondary causes, too. Probably in more than one book but I can't think of the name of the one where I read it.

The thing about primary and secondary causes, though, is that God is still in control in both cases.

 

[Brother Bob]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Bob
All I can say after the many debates we have had on the scriptures is; Hogwash!

. . .

Read them and weep.

All of what and why does one believe and another does not?

Why is one the "elect" and another is not if both are the same, or could it be that "one believes and the other one does not"? IMO,

 

[christianyouth]

How about studied? This is where I am baffled.
The Bible so clearly teaches the doctrines an Grace and predestination that I don't see how anyone who has Studied can believe otherwise.

Are they truly converted?
s?

A good indication that someone is not saved is that they will be emmeshed in false teaching. Jesus told his disciples that the Holy Spirit would lead them into ALL truth, so how can we have sincere Calvinists and Arminians?

To answer the question from a spiritual perspective, it is because of sin. The sin of laziness usually, sometimes the sin of denying the Bible's doctrine because it is offensive, sometimes the sin of idolatry, creating God into an image that suits their conceptions of what Jehovah 'should' be like. The problem is sin.

God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him, right? The main thing I can say is that 'christians' are content to have a cursory knowledge of the Bible, and thus prove their unregenerate state. For we know as a newborn babe hungers after milk, so we as new creatures will hunger after spiritual sustenance, the Word.

So, it is an issue of seeking. Challenging one's presuppositions, and asking themselves uncomfortable questions like, 'Could I still love God if he predestined people to hell?' 'would God be just in condeming sinners to hell without an opportunity to be saved?', and to inquire into their conceptions of God and see if they line up to the Bible.

Presuppositions : A preconcieved notion. If you are like the average American Christian, you are dependent upon your Pastor to feed you the meat of the Word. Your Pastor interprets a passage a certain way, now you view that interpretation as truth. John 3:16 stressing the word WORLD etc, you hear that enough, it will have an impact. And in fact, Calvinists have to battle this as well. It is easy to get a theological paradigm imposed on you, and then to read the Bible through that set of 'glasses', trying to conform scripture to fit into a mold.

A solution for avoiding presuppositions would be questions. Always interrogating a passage and looking at the multiple ways it could be interpreted, and then to use the analogy of scripture to see if your interpretation fits with the rest of scripture, the clear scriptures.

Another way to avoid presuppositions would be allowing the Clear, explicit doctrines of the Bible to interpret those vague and implicit passages(God 'repented' etc).

 

[Dale-c]

Why is one the "elect" and another is not if both are the same, or could it be that "one believes and the other one does not"? IMO,

I do not know why God elects some and not others.
Your opinion on the matter brings the work of your own into the equation.
You just said it, because some are BETTER than others. Some are elect because they CHOOSE!

That is absolutely Biblically false.

 

[Dale-c]

Studied?
See Charles Hodge's Systematic Theology. He is a Calvinist, rather strict as I recall, and has a large section dealing with free will in his Theology. Also see W. G. T. Shedd's Dogmatic Theology, particularly volume 3, which he wrote about 16 years or so after he published the first two volumes (he was clarifying the public's misconceptions from the first two volumes). Shedd has a particularly good reconciliation of his Calvinism with free will (see vol. 3, starting at p.298). Lewis S. Chafer, in vol. 1 of his Systematic Theology, also has a decent section explaining primary and secondary causes as it relates to God and man. Compare this to the sections in The Westminster Confession that deal with secondary causes.

I actually agree with you but I think you misunderstood my point.
The problem with using the term "free willers" is some people object to that term. But if I had used the term "armenian" people who deny calvinism would have objected to that term as well.

I am fully aware of secondary causes. I just heard a great series of sermons on God's Decree by a pastor from California.
He dealt in length with secondary causes.
I am not denying mans choosing but man will only ever choose according to his nature.
Also, this was NOT an accusatory post, it was an honest question to other calvinists to see what they thought on the matter.

 

[Brother Bob]

Dale C
Quote:
Why is one the "elect" and another is not if both are the same, or could it be that "one believes and the other one does not"? IMO,
I do not know why God elects some and not others.
Your opinion on the matter brings the work of your own into the equation.
You just said it, because some are BETTER than others. Some are elect because they CHOOSE!

That is absolutely Biblically false.

Jos 24:15And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

It does not matter how much scripture you are given, you will not accept it unless it fits into your theology!

 

[Dale-c]

It does not matter how much scripture you are given, you will not accept it unless it fits into your theology!

On the contrary, I believed your doctrine for years. I scoffed at predestination. THen I actually read what the Bible really says about it.

As for your verse: yes we are commanded to choose.
Everyone in hell will be there because they have not followed Christ.
However, everyone that DOES believe, that does choose does so only because God has given the faith to be able to do so.

I, once again do not deny secondary causes and mans responsibility.

PLease, Bob tell me what YOU do with THIS passage:

9For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

 

[Brother Bob]

PLease, Bob tell me what YOU do with THIS passage:

Quote:
9For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Because God knows all things, even the end from the beginning, does not mean He causes everything to happen, like Easu selling his birthright.

God knows when you are going to die. Did He cause your death or did Adam's disobeidence cause it?

 

[Dale-c]

NIce way to avoid the question.

How does God know all things if He has not decreed all things to come to pass?
As far as my death: The Lord Giveth and the Lord Taketh away. Blessed me the Name of the Lord.

As for sin, man will always sin without the restraint of God.
There is NON that seeketh after righteousness.

God never makes anyman sin. God simply allows men to follow their own heart and sin naturally happens to the natural man.

Oh, how does God know? How does God know if if he has not decreed?

Please answer me this, as this is the main point of all of the discussion.
Who is the ultimate decider of who is saved and who is not saved: God or Man?