Honest, Studied and Converted free willers?

[Amy.G]

Dale-C:

I have not question, personally anyones salvation.
That I believe is what the rule applies to.

What else could you possibly mean when you say "are they truly converted?"
Dale-C:

Are they truly converted?

Dale-C:

By your implication, then questioning the salvation of mormons JWs and Catholics and Muslims is also prohibited.

You are comparing protestant, Baptist believers to Mormons and Muslims because they believe in free will??


Dale-C:

BUt what other explanation fits for those who have been in the ministry for 30 years and still deny God's sovereign grace other than the fact that the natural man cannot know these things?

You are saying that anyone who does not believe in the Calvinists teachings are "natural men"(unsaved).

Yes, you are questioning the salvation of anyone who believes in free will.

 

[Humblesmith]

I actually agree with you but I think you misunderstood my point.
The problem with using the term "free willers" is some people object to that term. But if I had used the term "armenian" people who deny calvinism would have objected to that term as well.

I am fully aware of secondary causes. I just heard a great series of sermons on God's Decree by a pastor from California.
He dealt in length with secondary causes.
I am not denying mans choosing but man will only ever choose according to his nature.
Also, this was NOT an accusatory post, it was an honest question to other calvinists to see what they thought on the matter.

Again, read Hodge....he has a long section on Will & Calvinism. Then read Shedd, vol. 3.

 

[Dale-c]

What else could you possibly mean when you say "are they truly converted?"

I mean I am not questioning a specific persons salvation. I mean that I have a question, a general question and I put that as a possible answer, or one of many possible answers. It will of course vary from person to person as to why they do not believe all that the Bible teaches.

You are comparing protestant, Baptist believers to Mormons and Muslims because they believe in free will??

No, I wasn't but they do all have one thing is common, none of them believe in absolute grace.
What I meant was, to say that you can't question salvation in a general sense by belief in a particular doctrine, then you can't question catholics either.

You are saying that anyone who does not believe in the Calvinists teachings are "natural men"(unsaved).

Yes, you are questioning the salvation of anyone who believes in free will.

No, I am NOT sayng that! I am saying that it is POSSIBLE that the REASON that SOME people can read the Bible and still not believe a clear doctrin (any doctrine, not just this one) could be because they are not truly converted and thus can't understand.
That is but one POSSIBLE explanation.
ANd it IS a POSSIBLE explanation regardless of the doctrine for why someone would not believe the clear teaching of the Word of God.

 

[Dale-c]

Again, read Hodge....he has a long section on Will & Calvinism. Then read Shedd, vol. 3.

I have heard good things of Hodge, p[perhaps I will read it.

 

[npetreley]

Are there any people who believe in free will and non predestination etc who are honest in what they believe?
I think so. I used to be like that myself. I Honestly believed I was right.

How about studied? This is where I am baffled.

Just curious: When you started seeing how the Bible contradicted your views, did you fight it? I didn't, at least not that I can recall.

 

[Brother Bob]

NIce way to avoid the question.

How does God know all things if He has not decreed all things to come to pass?
Then you are saying God is the author of sin!

As far as my death: The Lord Giveth and the Lord Taketh away. Blessed me the Name of the Lord.
There is a reason "he taketh away" and that is because Adam sinned and brought death upon us all.

As for sin, man will always sin without the restraint of God.
There is NON that seeketh after righteousness.
Job 32:8But [there is] a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

God never makes anyman sin. God simply allows men to follow their own heart and sin naturally happens to the natural man.
If He decreed all things as you said before then He makes man sin.

Oh, how does God know? How does God know if if he has not decreed?
Again you cross yourself and speak both ways.
Does God decree all things or not?

Please answer me this, as this is the main point of all of the discussion.
Who is the ultimate decider of who is saved and who is not saved: God or Man?
God

We are saved by Grace "through faith" and it "our faith in God".


"Thy faith hath made thee whole" according to Jesus.

Give your honest statement Dale C, do you believe that the so called "free willers" are all lost? I mean have I been preaching, pastoring, baptizing for over 34 years as a "false prophet", and all those who have been my congregation, are they and I lost?

 

[skypair]

Going by your man made logic we have..

1) man is a non-believer.
2) Man choose God and believes.
3) Then going with your order above...God then choose man to believe.

I could tell you would be confused because you reject foreknowledge. Like the passage I cited in Psa 33, God looked from eternity into future time and did #3 -- chose BELIEVERS.

This idea is not found anywhere in the Bible. But what it does say, is that Christ choose us, before we choose Him.

No, Jesus chose His DISCIPLES, they did not choose Him. John 6:68.

This was election....Gods choice..and David had nothing to do with it.
Abram was picked over all men.

Very good! David was picked for God's purpose, to be King of Israel, NOT to salvation.

Paul was picked over the rich young ruler. The rich young ruler...was a good person. Paul was killing believers.

Huh?? What is this --- "fractured Bible verses?? Care to offer something a little more concurrent?

skypair

 

[Dale-c]

Just curious: When you started seeing how the Bible contradicted your views, did you fight it? I didn't, at least not that I can recall.

I didn't really fight it, but I was very timid and did struggle with the fact that there was a lot of pressure from others NOT to believe it. I actually had no problem at all at first.
I first started learning these things at about 18.
I think the best way to say it would be that I was afraid of what people would think at first.
It took a few years to gain the boldness to speak out about what I had learned.

 

[Dale-c]

Give your honest statement Dale C, do you believe that the so called "free willers" are all lost? I mean have I been preaching, pastoring, baptizing for over 34 years as a "false prophet", and all those who have been my congregation, are they and I lost?

I do not know you and I do not know your heart.
I am not authorized to judge your heart.
I am authorized to judge righteously of your fruit and you are guilty of teaching false doctrine.
Does that mean you are not a Christian?
No, it does not. No preacher has ever spoken 100% without error.

Again, if you read my OP, you will see that I believe there are three reasons people disregard plain and simple doctrinal teaching of the Bible.
Perhaps there is another reason.

Please answer this Bob:
If there is another reason that you know of why people refuse to believe clear biblical teaching please tell me.

 

[npetreley]

Give your honest statement Dale C, do you believe that the so called "free willers" are all lost? I mean have I been preaching, pastoring, baptizing for over 34 years as a "false prophet", and all those who have been my congregation, are they and I lost?

This is a strange argument. What do you think preaching, pastoring and baptizing for 34 years earns you? Excepting yourself, don't you think it's possible for someone to do all that and still be lost? Aren't these the ones crying, "Lord, Lord, look at everything we did in your name!"

 

[Plain Old Bill]

So only Calvinists go to heaven?:tonofbricks: :BangHead:

 

[npetreley]

So only Calvinists go to heaven?:tonofbricks: :BangHead:

I'm not aware of anyone who is saying this, other than the free-willers.

 

[Plain Old Bill]

Perhaps you should re-read the thread or maybe read it through the first time.By the way that was a question in the form of a statement.

 

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
Give your honest statement Dale C, do you believe that the so called "free willers" are all lost? I mean have I been preaching, pastoring, baptizing for over 34 years as a "false prophet", and all those who have been my congregation, are they and I lost?

This is a strange argument. What do you think preaching, pastoring and baptizing for 34 years earns you? Excepting yourself, don't you think it's possible for someone to do all that and still be lost? Aren't these the ones crying, "Lord, Lord, look at everything we did in your name!"

What is strange is calling my statement strange. If a man give his whole life serving the Lord and then when he is old, some one who don't know why he is the "elect" say that this whole group are wrong because they say "God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that Whosoever would believe should not perish but have eternal life. Now to say, God was really saying, "hey folks, I didn't mean that, I meant the precious few I chose myself, before all this even started." Now that is strange!

 

[Rippon]

Question : Does God love those He hates ?

 

[Plain Old Bill]

Bro. Bob I went to your web site,read your circular letter and listened to you sing a few songs. You have a heart for God. I know you better now and am glad for it.:godisgood:

 

[skypair]

Question : Does God love those He hates ?

There isn't anyONE He hates, [foul language edited] Are you saying you worship a god of hate?? I know who that is --- it's Satan.

skypair

God hates the foul language and name-calling that you have used. Please avoid it!!

 

[Rippon]

Watch your language Mr. Pilot . If you think that God does not hate anyone you are denying Scripture . Don't tell me after all this time of your interaction on the BB that you have never encountered biblical passages that speak of His hatred of individuals -- not only their sin ?

God is not a God of hate . He is called by the Word a God of love . But please do not fashion him according to your own mold . His attributes are many and varied . His wrath and judgment are just as much Him as His love and mercy .

 

[skypair]

This is a strange argument. What do you think preaching, pastoring and baptizing for 34 years earns you? Excepting yourself, don't you think it's possible for someone to do all that and still be lost? Aren't these the ones crying, "Lord, Lord, look at everything we did in your name!"

Not possible for Bob --- but maybe for you.

Gotta tell you, npetrely, "election" don't make it unless you are justified/saved first. "Election" is "phase 2 of salvation. Big whoop! The Pharisees tried to sanctify their lost souls with their fleshly works and it just doesn't work that way. You'll soon find that out.

skypair

 

[npetreley]

What is strange is calling my statement strange. If a man give his whole life serving the Lord and then when he is old, some one who don't know why he is the "elect" say that this whole group are wrong because they say "God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that Whosoever would believe should not perish but have eternal life. Now to say, God was really saying, "hey folks, I didn't mean that, I meant the precious few I chose myself, before all this even started." Now that is strange!

You're taking the question too personally. I said "excepting you". I'm not talking about you. I simply find your argument strange. Our works count for nothing if they do not have their origin in God. So if the works are not from God, it is not evidence of salvation, no matter how "good" these works may sound.

That's why your argument prompted the question: Is it not possible that someone can preach, pastor, etc., for 30+ years and still be lost? I say it is. That person will be one of those crying, "Lord, Lord, lookie, lookie at all the stuff I did for you!", and that person may be lost. Or, that person may be saved, but his works will be burned up because they were not from God, but from himself.