Honest, Studied and Converted free willers?

[skypair]

I do not know why God elects some and not others.
Your opinion on the matter brings the work of your own into the equation.
You just said it, because some are BETTER than others. Some are elect because they CHOOSE!

That is absolutely Biblically false.

You "drank the Koolaid!" You don't know the answer but you believe the theology that also doesn't know! Welcome to Jonestown!

"Work of your own" for instance. What was that work? BELIEVING the gospel! But Rom 4:5 says believing is NOT work! So what a free will person does is believe the gospel, obeys (which proves he/she believes), RECEIVES the GIFT of the Holy Spirit which is PROOF of God's promise and thereby also receives FAITH (substance of things beleived).

To tell the truth, "election" means nothing unless you are saved.

skypair

 

[skypair]

On the contrary, I believed your doctrine for years. I scoffed at predestination. THen I actually read what the Bible really says about it.

As for your verse: yes we are commanded to choose.
Everyone in hell will be there because they have not followed Christ.
However, everyone that DOES believe, that does choose does so only because God has given the faith to be able to do so.

You missed somethin' there, Dale-c ------- He gave faith to them because they BELIEVED! You see, "Faith is the substance of things BELIEVED, the evidence of this not seen." Heb 11:1

So when they BELIEVED, God gave them the Holy Spirit as "substance" and "evidence" of His promise (what they "hoped for") --- then they had faith.

So what is belief? It is hope. It is something you act upon without seeing. It is like "Faith, hope, and charity but the greatest of these is charity [love]." Faith is promises that God has fulfilled --- hopes are promises that are yet future but we believe because we have relationship and faith that God keeps His promises.

This thought is going to make an uplifting thread soon! :godisgood: Think about it --- our "blessed hope" is Christ's appearing. We have not seen that yet we hope in it because God is faithful, too!

skypair

 

[Benjamin]

This thought is going to make an uplifting thread soon! :godisgood:

Amen bro Skypair, preach it! :wavey:

 

[Dale-c]

You missed somethin' there, Dale-c ------- He gave faith to them because they BELIEVED! You see, "Faith is the substance of things BELIEVED, the evidence of this not seen." Heb 11:1

I must have missed the part where it says God gives us faith because of our own belief.....wait...now I remember! It is because it isn't there in the first place!

This is what I found in this verse:
Hebrews 11

1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

No where does it say that faith is the reward of belief.
But you might try:

8For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God--
9not by works, lest any man should boast.

10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath beforehand ordained, that we should walk in them.

 

[Dale-c]

You "drank the Koolaid!" You don't know the answer but you believe the theology that also doesn't know! Welcome to Jonestown!

You make no sense.

What I do not know is why God chose me and not someone else.
There was nothing in me for God to respect. Nothing to grant me salvation over someone else.
I believe what God has revealed. His secret counsels are just that, secret. I do not know what God has not revealed.

If you happen to have a special revelation that tells you why God makes His choices, please share it with the rest of the class.

 

[skypair]

You "drank the Koolaid!" You don't know the answer but you believe the theology that also doesn't know! Welcome to Jonestown!

What I do not know is why God chose me and not someone else.

Nor does Calvinism -- but the Bible tells us. Notice how you admit your theology doesn't come from the Bible but from Calvinism.

I believe what God has revealed. His secret counsels are just that, secret. I do not know what God has not revealed.

If you happen to have a special revelation that tells you why God makes His choices, please share it with the rest of the class.

How about this, Dale-c: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." Don't believe -- don't be saved. "Secret counsels?" No, Dale, gospel -- good news. Not "hidden under a bushel" "secret counsel" but passed mouth to ear by loving Christians.

skypair

 

[skypair]

I must have missed the part where it says God gives us faith because of our own belief.....wait...now I remember! It is because it isn't there in the first place!

Read Rom 3:22, dale -- "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:..."

Or Gal 3:22 -- "But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be GIVEN to them that believe."

See -- BIBLE, not Calvinism. Now you have no excuse for not knowing (or for sipping the Koolaid).

skypair

 

[Dale-c]

Notice how you admit your theology doesn't come from the Bible but from Calvinism.

Nope, I did not "admit" that my theology comes from Calvanism and not the Bible because that is not true.
I would appreciate if you would stop breaking the 9th commandment.

you are being completely ignorant. I am not talking about belief here, I am talking about WHY Gos CHOSE one TO believe.
Yes, if you believe on the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ, you WILL be saved.
If you have truly done this, that mean that you are one of the elect.

You have it backwards. God has Elected you and that is why you believed.
Your idea seems to be that you believed and that is why God chose you.
You believe in conditional election. I believe in UNCONDITIONAL election.
I believe in election without works, you seem to believe in election because of works.

 

[Dale-c]

Skypair, do me a favor and actually learn what calvinists believe before you make a fool out of yourself as you have done so far.

 

[Dale-c]

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
(Ephesians 1:11)

PLease explain this to me Spypair.

 

[skypair]

dale,

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
(Ephesians 1:11)

PLease explain this to me Skypair.

You yourself acknowledge God's "permissive will," right? God's permissive will allows man to have persoanl sovereignty whereby sin is constantly being created and accomplished right under God's nose! But He permits it!

Sure, it is the counsel of God's will to "allow" sin and things that aren't under His direct control/sovereignty! One of those things God "allows" is for us to choose life or death -- physical and spiritual -- in this case spiritual. And, going to the verse you cite, as those who have chosen Christ, we are predestined to a purpose by which we obtain an inheritance, here and hereafter, according to -- what do you think it is according to, dale??? According to our choices to trust and obey in this life! And does God "counsel" you?? He does if you listen to the Spirit, right? So you are "counselled by God's own will" are you not?

You are making something secret that ought not be hidden except in regards to you beforehand.

BTW, God didn't choose anyone TO believe. We choose and God foreknows of that. The is a Calvinist premise that God chooses 1) makes no sense (how do you MAKE someone believe?) and 2) is made in order to support the "superstructure" of TULIP.

skypair

 

[Dale-c]

You yourself acknowledge God's "permissive will," right? God's permissive will allows man to have persoanl sovereignty whereby sin is constantly being created and accomplished right under God's nose! But He permits it!

God has His decree which includes the sin of the wicked.
He does not make them sin but allows it, but at the same time every sin He allows is part of an overall plan.
No, man does not have personal sovereighty. there is nothing man can do against his nature unless God intervenes.

Sure, it is the counsel of God's will to "allow" sin and things that aren't under His direct control/sovereignty!

Umm..wrong, there is NOTHING outside of God's control or Sovereignty.

BTW, God didn't choose anyone TO believe. We choose and God foreknows of that. The is a Calvinist premise that God chooses 1) makes no sense (how do you MAKE someone believe?) and 2) is made in order to support the "superstructure" of TULIP.

That is blasphemy and undermines the very character of God!

How do I make someone believe? I can't and I don't.
However, God can and does change the heart of all whom He has elected unto eternal life.

Let me ask you this: Do you not believe God is capable of changing a heart of a man who hates God to to Love God and believe in Him for salvation?
Is God incapable? You have made man into a god and God under the fallen will of man.
That is blasphemy.
I have many disagreements with Christian brothers who may not see things just as I do, but what you are saying it adding works to faith.
Not only that but you are making God the tagalong to our plans, our choices.
You are giving every man a freewill but tying the hands of Almighty God.

But, thankfully God is truly God and Lord of all regardless of how you try to weaken Him.

 

[Jarthur001]

BTW, God didn't choose anyone TO believe. We choose and God foreknows of that. The is a Calvinist premise that God chooses 1) makes no sense (how do you MAKE someone believe?) and 2) is made in order to support the "superstructure" of TULIP.

skypair

How can you keep saying false statements like this??? You have shown from Gods Word that you have the order wrong, yet you fail to change your views, but would rather hold to such views in place of the truth. Does your doctrine mean this much to you that you would go against the clear message of the Bible?

When shown, ....and you have been shown many times, you choose to overlook these passages and never reply to them, and stay on your path of "your logic over the Bible".

Would if not be better to believe the verses you have been shown? Why play God by forcing your logic on the Bible that does not support your views?

 

[skypair]

God has His decree which includes the sin of the wicked.
He does not make them sin but allows it, but at the same time every sin He allows is part of an overall plan.

"Permissive will" is just Calvinism's fancy way of avoiding "free will." It means that God is, indeed, not responsible for sin, for things that would transpire that were against His will (like Pharoah not letting His people go or mankind totally rebelling before the flood), etc. IOW, anytime man exercised his 'free will' against God, Calvinism calls it "permissive will." It's what they call in my business a "distractor" -- keeps you off the real issue.

No, man does not have personal sovereighty. there is nothing man can do against his nature unless God intervenes.

See, that's a lie from the pit of hell even according to Calvinism! Even Calvinism says man isn't as bad as he could be --- and for the very reason that man DOES do some good things that are at odds with his "sin nature."

Umm..wrong, there is NOTHING outside of God's control or Sovereignty.

I know God has control of ALL consequences, ALL outcomes, even of your sins. But your theology would have God making us sin! That is blasphemy of the Spirit!!

That is blasphemy and undermines the very character of God!

What undermines the character of God is to teach that he delights in the condemnation of the wicked -- that God doesn't love ALL His creation and try to draw as many as possible to salvation!

How do I make someone believe? I can't and I don't.

Preach the gospel and let the Spirit speak.

However, God can and does change the heart of all whom He has elected unto eternal life.

You don't even know what the "heart" is. How do you know God Himself has to change it? How would you know what is involved?? You're spouting "moral platitudes" that truly mean nothing to you! How COULD you possibly know how God turns the elect into believers??

Let me ask you this: Do you not believe God is capable of changing a heart of a man who hates God to to Love God and believe in Him for salvation?

God? Through what "instrument?" What does God find in man which "permits" Him to change man?? Because, indeed, man is unchanged if his mind, emotions, and will are not altered, wouldn't you agree?

Let me bind up your scurilous accusations of my paradigm of a less sovereign God with this --- God is no less nor more sovereign whether we call His limitations God-centered "permissive will" or whether we call them man-centered "free will." In both, God chooses where He will limit Himself in order that men might 1) be like Him in eternity and 2) freely choose him in this present age.

skypair

 

[skypair]

How can you keep saying false statements like this??? You have shown from Gods Word that you have the order wrong, yet you fail to change your views, but would rather hold to such views in place of the truth. Does your doctrine mean this much to you that you would go against the clear message of the Bible?

As if you pretend that your doctrine ISN'T adverse to scripture, right? Don't "play the Pharisee" with me. You have "developed" your own antidote to Bible truth called Calvinism. When I present one interpretation of scripture, you have the coinciding Calvinist opposite to offer to where we aren't talking about scrupture anymore --- we're talking about the character of God Himself!! And I find that the character of your god closely resembles the Greek god of "Fate." You neither know what God is doing nor do you believe there is anything that YOU can DO about it.

Of course, I invite you to disprove that statement by showing me that you KNOW the "secret counsel of God" regarding whether He "elected" you (course, it wouldn't be "secret" if you did know it, would it?). Then you can explain to me what YOU yourself can do/have done to alter the course of "fate."

When shown, ....and you have been shown many times, you choose to overlook these passages and never reply to them, and stay on your path of "your logic over the Bible".

This is just another scurrilous ad homenim on your part. I make it a point to give my understanding of whatever scripture is presented. But go ahead and make yourself "look good" at my expense.

Would if not be better to believe the verses you have been shown? Why play God by forcing your logic on the Bible that does not support your views?

I do believe them ---- just not as interpretted for me by Calvinism.

skypair

 

[Dale-c]

Quote:
How do I make someone believe? I can't and I don't.
Preach the gospel and let the Spirit speak.

And you cam MAKE someone get saved this way? yes, this is basically what we are supposed to do, preach and let God work but there is nothing in OUR power to convert the lost.
We sow and water but God gives the increase.

See, that's a lie from the pit of hell even according to Calvinism! Even Calvinism says man isn't as bad as he could be --- and for the very reason that man DOES do some good things that are at odds with his "sin nature."

There you go misrepresenting me again. I know that no man is as bad as he is capable of. God restrains the wicked every single day. If not, who knows what all would go on and what persecution God's people would experience.

How do you know God Himself has to change it?

Umm,,I read the Bible It is helpful in these matters.

How COULD you possibly know how God turns the elect into believers??

Well, I do KNOW but I sure don't understand. God changes the hearts of men because he is God.
YOu are not god, though you would like to be as god it would seem.
That is the oldest sin in the book, to be like as gods.

What does God find in man which "permits" Him to change man??

God finds NOTHING in man to change him! Can't you see??? You have no righteousness that God sees to give you favor in His sight. He does not NEED permission to change my heart or your heart. He is God after all, not you!

In both, God chooses where He will limit Himself in order that men might 1) be like Him in eternity and 2) freely choose him in this present age.

Please show me ONE instance in the Bible where God says that He has limited Himself?
God does NOT limit Himself, if He did, he would be no longer truly God.

I do believe them ---- just not as interpretted for me by Calvinism.

N o, you do not believe them. You believe in your own logic and when shown clearly that your own logic does not hold up the God's word, you take your own logic.

 

[webdog]

When shown, ....and you have been shown many times, you choose to overlook these passages and never reply to them, and stay on your path of "your logic over the Bible".

...or maybe they have been responded to so many times, there is no reason to keep doing so? Has nothing to do with "overlooking" those passages, but disagreeing on the application of them. See, it's these kind of debates that makes me mad. Nothing but strawmen and ad hominem's.

 

[mnw]

You know, there are calvinists with whom I disagree, but I deeply respect them and together we work to share the Gospel.

Our views differ, our goal is the same - to glorify God by sharing the Gospel with a lost and dying world.

To a degree, it matters not whether I believe some are elect and others are not. Their foreheads are not marked, they are not card-carrying elected individuals. Our responsibility is to give the Gospel out to all and leave the rest to the Lord.

I believe there are dangers latent in Calvinism but there are also dangers in the opposite view.

But what really, really gets me is the pride that eminates from some calvinist posters! The OP in this thread is one such post. It turns my stomach to see such pride.

As some one has already noted: :BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead:

 

[Dale-c]

You know, there are calvinists with whom I disagree, but I deeply respect them and together we work to share the Gospel.

That is a reciprocated statement.

Our views differ, our goal is the same - to glorify God by sharing the Gospel with a lost and dying world.

Again, this is true in many cases.

To a degree, it matters not whether I believe some are elect and others are not. Their foreheads are not marked, they are not card-carrying elected individuals. Our responsibility is to give the Gospel out to all and leave the rest to the Lord.

We have not been given the knowledge of who is and who is not the elect, we are to preach the gospel to everyone.

I believe there are dangers latent in Calvinism but there are also dangers in the opposite view.

There are no dangers in balanced calvanism but there are HUGE dangers in hypercalvanism, such as those who seperate the means from the end.
Like those who say the elect will just one day realize they are saved.
THat is so false.
Also there are those that use God's sovereignty and Grace as an excuse for laziness and sin. That too is wrong.

I will let someone from the "other side" point out their faults.

But what really, really gets me is the pride that eminates from some calvinist posters! The OP in this thread is one such post. It turns my stomach to see such pride.

If the OP seemed to be borne of pride, I am deeply sorry. I had no such intent.

The truths of God's grace in this area are so plain to see in the Bible that I am baffled that there are others who call themselves Christians who can't see how clear it is.
I was actually, in the OP, asking other Calvinists what they thought.
Am i missing a reason here?

 

[MB]

God has His decree which includes the sin of the wicked.
He does not make them sin but allows it, but at the same time every sin He allows is part of an overall plan.

This sounds like double speake to me. It's His plan but it's our choice to sin. You just contradicted yourself.

No, man does not have personal sovereighty. there is nothing man can do against his nature unless God intervenes.

Not even one person who wasn't saved ever helped anyone else? No one ever loved any one else? Ever died for anyone else selflessly? No unsaved man ever showed mercy on anyone else?
These are all things you claim the natural man is unable to do because, of the mans sinfullness.
The truth is as plain as the nose on your face. Men have choices as to do good or not and only the blind can't see this fact.
MB