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How am I condemned?

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loDebar

Well-Known Member
You need to understand that sarx, usually translated 'flesh,' very often in the N.T. does not refer to physical flesh but to fallen human nature. 'So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God' (Romans 8:8). If that means those who have a body, then we're all in trouble!
Soma is a more reliable Greek word for the human body.

But I still don't understand what you're on about. Are you trying to show us how clever you are? If so, it's not working.

sorry , I replied out of order, I realize sarx means flesh just as Jesus did not say man but οὐδείς which means no one or nothing.

you do not realize what I am saying, I am declaring I and totally bad, I got condemned in heaven.
The purpose of physical creation is to redeem us. God did all this to redeem us.
 

loDebar

Well-Known Member
no, I am not and they only do not teach this. They equate humabity as a necessary part of God plans for heaven.

Humanity is necsessary for salvation for lost souls. We are the bad guys, this is a prison in which God offers pardons

Thgey are actually close to Islam in overall teaching
 

loDebar

Well-Known Member
mormons , JW's and Islam and others want to bring earth to Heaven.

We are in prison condemned instead we are offered redemption. Even the word redeem suggests a previous relationship
 

JonShaff

Fellow Servant
Site Supporter
when were we in unbelief?

Christ as a man is part of salvation, humanity is the method of salvation,

How did we come to need salvation ? Jesus said we were condemned already. Jesus said He does not judge man.

yet we are condemned, destined for the lake of fire , prepated for the devil and his angels
I'm not going to engage in cryptic dialog. What Christ has taught is plain in Scripture. Engage in my post, please.
 

HankD

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Pastor Bob mentioned Romans 5:12

Romans 5:12 Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned --

All the verbs are aorist - past tense.

When Adam sinned we were all there and sinned as well.

We are condemned already.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


HankD
 

agedman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I amnot separating but, God gave us bodies at the time and place of His choice.

Did we exist before our bodies?

Heb 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

We know Jesus had a body prepared for Him
Heb 10:5
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

No, there is no existence before being "formed in (the) mother's womb."

Philosophy would separate the body from the soul and spirit. However, one cannot have such a separation and function. Which is why when the believer casts off this old body in what is called death, they have been given that new body which is "like His."

Now, "...It does not appear what we shall be, but we shall be like Him..."

Christ is God. God has always existed. So of course a body had to be prepared for Him. Humankind are not from eternity past, but each is formed by the will of God according to His design and designated purpose. As God formed Adam and breathed into him never ending life and took from Adam and formed Eve. However, in the Scriptures there is limited information as to how this all took place and the function of each.

There is Scripture that state that only God can separate them. (Hebrews 4:12)

There is Scripture that state that God preserves and discerns each. (1 Thessalonians 5:23)

There is Scripture that state that God demands complete devotion of all "parts." (Matthew 22:37)

There is Scripture that states that there is an eternal body and soul that can be cast to hell. (Matthew 10:28)

Which brings us to the next part of your post.

but our body does not sin, our soul sins.

We have been taught they are equall, They are not, Jesus said to cut off the hand if it could offends The flesh is tempory and for the only purpose for the salvation of mankind through Jesus's shared death

you will agree the soul exist without the body.

Who said our body does not sin?

If the body does not sin, why would the Lord point to parts of the body that need to be controlled, as you mentioned in your post?

The flesh sins. (Ephesians 5:6, Romans 7:25)

From the very core of who a person is (referred to as the heart among the Europeans, the bowels in the middle asians...) come the sexual sins, the murders, the evil thoughts and musings...

I do not agree that the soul exists without a body. Rather, the Scriptures indicate that the soul leaves this body of corruption and is given a new incorruptible body. (1 Corinthians 5)

Now a personal note:

Should the Scriptures have given more information about how all the "parts" (soul, mind, body, spirit...) fit and worked, taking each part and intricately explaining how each is formed and for what purpose and how the fall impacted them differently, then this attempt at separation might have some traction.

But that is not the presentation of the Scriptures.

The Scriptures are not specific, and when they are not, then it is not given to humankind to demand a specific. It is enough that the Scriptures present the person as a complete package, formed by God for God's purpose.

For the believer, there is this struggle of wills that takes place. That struggle between the will born of the flesh, and the will given by God at the new birth that one day inhabits the new body.

It is not evil to philosophize as long as it is not attempting to establish what is beyond the Scriptures, but merely musings and intellectual wondering. But be careful that the wondering does not transform into something that can be held as the truth. Only what is Scriptural is what is the truth and in the matter presented in your post the Scriptures do not give specific information in such a manner as to extend beyond the basic statements that there are parts, that they are intricately connected, and that sin infests all of it.
 

HankD

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
There is a limited sense in which one can say we pre-existed our physical birth in that God knew each of us from eternity.

Also, there is an ancient heretical body of belief called Gnosticism (many forms) which basically teaches that no matter what we do in the flesh it does not matter as to the disposition of the eternal spirit/soul which has arrived at perfection through spiritual knowledge (gnosis).

This corruption entered the church early on.

Yes there are actually those "christians" who teach that we can go ahead and sin as much as we want if we are saved.

First, if we are indeed saved and are led away into this doctrine of demons then physical death awaits us as the scripture declared to the Corinthian Christians.

1 Corinthians 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

and those of the fornicators of the Church of Thyatira:

Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

There is the other possibility that those who "practice" sin but are in reality the following:

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
 

loDebar

Well-Known Member
No, there is no existence before being "formed in (the) mother's womb."

Philosophy would separate the body from the soul and spirit. However, one cannot have such a separation and function. Which is why when the believer casts off this old body in what is called death, they have been given that new body which is "like His."

Now, "...It does not appear what we shall be, but we shall be like Him..."

Christ is God. God has always existed. So of course a body had to be prepared for Him. Humankind are not from eternity past, but each is formed by the will of God according to His design and designated purpose. As God formed Adam and breathed into him never ending life and took from Adam and formed Eve. However, in the Scriptures there is limited information as to how this all took place and the function of each.

There is Scripture that state that only God can separate them. (Hebrews 4:12)

There is Scripture that state that God preserves and discerns each. (1 Thessalonians 5:23)

There is Scripture that state that God demands complete devotion of all "parts." (Matthew 22:37)

There is Scripture that states that there is an eternal body and soul that can be cast to hell. (Matthew 10:28)

Which brings us to the next part of your post.



Who said our body does not sin?

If the body does not sin, why would the Lord point to parts of the body that need to be controlled, as you mentioned in your post?

The flesh sins. (Ephesians 5:6, Romans 7:25)

From the very core of who a person is (referred to as the heart among the Europeans, the bowels in the middle asians...) come the sexual sins, the murders, the evil thoughts and musings...

I do not agree that the soul exists without a body. Rather, the Scriptures indicate that the soul leaves this body of corruption and is given a new incorruptible body. (1 Corinthians 5)

Now a personal note:

Should the Scriptures have given more information about how all the "parts" (soul, mind, body, spirit...) fit and worked, taking each part and intricately explaining how each is formed and for what purpose and how the fall impacted them differently, then this attempt at separation might have some traction.

But that is not the presentation of the Scriptures.

The Scriptures are not specific, and when they are not, then it is not given to humankind to demand a specific. It is enough that the Scriptures present the person as a complete package, formed by God for God's purpose.

For the believer, there is this struggle of wills that takes place. That struggle between the will born of the flesh, and the will given by God at the new birth that one day inhabits the new body.

It is not evil to philosophize as long as it is not attempting to establish what is beyond the Scriptures, but merely musings and intellectual wondering. But be careful that the wondering does not transform into something that can be held as the truth. Only what is Scriptural is what is the truth and in the matter presented in your post the Scriptures do not give specific information in such a manner as to extend beyond the basic statements that there are parts, that they are intricately connected, and that sin infests all of it.


This is scriptural it is not humanistic, as we have been taught.

We all believe the soul will exist without the body in Heaven sfter physical death.

I am just repeating what Jresus said, plainly. Who are you arguing with?
 

loDebar

Well-Known Member
There is a limited sense in which one can say we pre-existed our physical birth in that God knew each of us from eternity.

Also, there is an ancient heretical body of belief called Gnosticism (many forms) which basically teaches that no matter what we do in the flesh it does not matter as to the disposition of the eternal spirit/soul which has arrived at perfection through spiritual knowledge (gnosis).

This corruption entered the church early on.

Yes there are actually those "christians" who teach that we can go ahead and sin as much as we want if we are saved.

First, if we are indeed saved and are led away into this doctrine of demons then physical death awaits us as the scripture declared to the Corinthian Christians.

1 Corinthians 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

and those of the fornicators of the Church of Thyatira:

Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

There is the other possibility that those who "practice" sin but are in reality the following:

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


This is not inline with Gnostics who surmised all physical is bad anfdtherefore Jesus was not physical but an spiritual illusion.

He was a physical being, as we are. We share in His death, He is a spiritual being , as we are. He was God in the flesh, We are souls in the flesh
 

loDebar

Well-Known Member
Pastor Bob mentioned Romans 5:12

Romans 5:12 Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned --

All the verbs are aorist - past tense.

When Adam sinned we were all there and sinned as well.

We are condemned already.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


HankD
Sin came into the physical world through Adam. It was already here as sinful spiritual beings were here first.
 

loDebar

Well-Known Member
I need to add to my reponce to adedman,

the physical body does not sin but the soul sins , the control you mention is of the sinful being .

If i was to hit you accidently, did I sin?
If I was to swing AT you and miss, did I sin?

Sin is spiritual,
 

loDebar

Well-Known Member
Why did Jesus say you must be born of water (flesh) if it is obvious?

Jhn 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
 

loDebar

Well-Known Member
Psa 82:6
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Psa 82:7
But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

This is the same verse told to Jews who would have stoned Jesus.

Jesus said Ye are elohim, (not GOD ) but supernatural beings, This group was sinful , non believers.

Why would Jesus call the lost , supernatual beings,, ?
 

JonShaff

Fellow Servant
Site Supporter
Psa 82:6
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Psa 82:7
But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

This is the same verse told to Jews who would have stoned Jesus.

Jesus said Ye are elohim, not GOD but supernatural beings, This group was sinful , non believers.

Why would Jesus call he lost , supernatual beings,, ?
He called them rulers.
 

loDebar

Well-Known Member
So what? Adam's sin is why we are sinners.

no sin is not inherited

Eze 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

We sin because we are sinners, Adam brought sin into the physical not the spiritual.
Satan was already here as a sinner.

I beieve we were too, as spiritual sinners.
Jesus said we must be born as a human , them also born again spiritually
 
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