37818
Well-Known Member
They went from not believing the New Covenant to believing the New Covenant. Gentiles went from not believing to believing. Going from any non belief to a belief requires a change of mind first.
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1689Dave
Well-Known Member
They were born again just like Abraham.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Yes, it does.
Which is precisely how it happens for anyone, Jew or Gentile:
" Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." ( John 6:29 )
It is a work of God to believe on Christ...not a work of men.
No man, in and of himself ( or herself ) can believe on Christ unless that work is done for them.
Rockson
Active Member
So why would God's servants have to plead for ones to become reconciled to God if God and God alone is the one who reconciles people to himself?
Mikey
Active Member
You can not have repentance without faith. How can you repent if you do not have faith that Christ paid the punishment for sin?
Rockson
Active Member
And you would claim that faith that leads to repentance is irresistible. Why therefore does it say in the text
"....as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God." 2 Cor 5:20
Why the need to have such a strong appeal like "beg" or "Implore" if this was all merely automatic anyway. Doesn't logic dictate that Paul recognized some, a few or many or all God would want to reconcile BUT those same individuals may will not to? Again why the need to plead?
And why the need for Paul to say he'd give up his own salvation those who were resisting the truth and give it to them? Doesn't that most clearly demonstrate he most surely wasn't thinking like a Calvinist? Would a modern day Calvinist approach Paul and say, "Who are you to question God who he saves! You better drop off that silly sorrow Paul and just let the will of God be done!"
I have deep sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my own flesh and blood. Rom 9:3
Get ready for the goal posts to be moved or defintions to be changed. It is the calvie way.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
There's another side to this. The refusal to comply separates the sheep from the goats.
Rockson
Active Member
You're not trying to divert from the question I asked? Which was -->Why the need to have such a strong appeal like "beg" or "Implore" if this was all merely automatic anyway?
What do goats have anything to do with the pleading, imploring and yes even begging people to be reconciled to God? Sorry Dave it seems like you just ramble things off to make it appear like you address issues. Give it another try if you will.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Many think they are saved who are not. Repentance unheeded = false convert.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
( RevMitchell said, "Get ready for the goal posts to be moved or defintions to be changed. It is the calvie way." )
A question if I may, good sir.
Why do you appear to mock this subject ( and other people on this forum who do not see things the way you do ) so much?
If you do not understand it, that is fine, in my estimation.
But to call someone a "Calvie" and then to mark them with disdain?
I assure you, I will never do the same to you.
If you want to reply to the teachings that I believe, then please do so with God's word.
If not, then don't.
I will speak to the teachings of "free will", but I will not mock or disparage those that see it differently.
Regardless of what I have done in the past, I am resolved not to let my conduct be unbecoming towards those who see the Bible differently than I.
Whatever you choose to do is between you and the Lord.
We all will stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ.
Because the Lord knows that we as believers can become dulled by the deceitfulness of sin, and that we can become as this passage states:
" And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make [you that ye shall] neither [be] barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 for so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." ( 2 Peter 1:5-11 )
The reason why God's ministers urge believers to be reconciled to God in their minds, is because we all can become as the Corinthians were...real messes in the flesh, and forgetting that we were purged of our sins by Jesus Christ.
We can walk carnally as men ( 1 Corinthians 3:1-9 ), and become hardened through the deceitfulness of sin ( Hebrews 3:13 ).
The reason why God's ministers watch over His children, as for their own souls, is because sheep aren't exactly wise, until they've grown spiritually. They stumble around, making messes of things.
They get carried away with every wind of doctrine ( Ephesians 4:11-16 ).
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
Yet, further down in the passage, he states something similar:
" Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" ( Romans 9:19-24 )
God did not tell Paul to "drop off that silly sorrow", anywhere I've ever read in Scripture.
Paul, like any man, wants to see God save people...to see His mercy and kindness manifested to others.
Paul, like any of God's children, also wanted to see the Lord's will done above all, because His will is perfect, and He is a perfect Judge.
He has His reasons for choosing some, and sending the rest to Hell.
It's not like we all don't deserve it or anything.
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37818
Well-Known Member
Abraham was justified, but had not been born again. Abraham did not go to heaven but into the upper compartment of Sheol when he had physically died. Hebrews 11:39-40.
Well, certainly it is an objective substantive truth. but my point was that the gospel has no inherent power to save anyone apart from being energized by God (the Holy Spirit) -
"our gospel came NOT IN WORD ONLY but in POWER and in the Spirit and in much assurance." - 1 Thes. 1:5
There is no difference between the Old and New Testament gospel except:
1. Future fulfillment versus past completion
2. Progressive revelation versus completed revelation
From the very first time the gospel was preached (Gen. 3:15) it contained sufficient information for faith to embrace and sins to be remitted (Acts 10:43; Heb. 4:2).
1. Future fulfillment versus past completion
2. Progressive revelation versus completed revelation
From the very first time the gospel was preached (Gen. 3:15) it contained sufficient information for faith to embrace and sins to be remitted (Acts 10:43; Heb. 4:2).
Well, actually, I believe it IS speaking of saving faith, from the context of the book of Romans, which was written to a congregation made up of former pagans who'd been brought up to worship Zeus, etc. They'd heard God's word from Paul, & he was reminding them of the source of their intel about Jesus.
I don't find any proof text here just your ideas. Scripture disagrees with Calvinism ideas.
Belief in Christ and what He did for us all is what saves.
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Man is not made to believe. or given faith, Faith comes by hearing
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
MB
37818
Well-Known Member
". . . But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. . . ." -- Romans 10:16-18.
". . . Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. . . ." -- Psalms 19:4. Speaking of the natural revelation by which all men have some kind of faith.
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