How to defeat the ME heresy

[npetreley]

Of course they don't have to prove it. But if they are really saved, they will have works, which coincidentally prove they are saved. You don't have to have cabbage to make cole-slaw, but if you really made cole-slaw it will have cabbage in it. That's what proves it's really cole-slaw.

So what's your point?

 

[J. Jump]

Believers don't have to prove anything to anyone.

Well if believers don't have to "prove" anything to anyone then why do you and others like you keep insisting that a saved person "has" to have works that follow their salvation? There's no Scriptural support for that.

But what you and others like you do is look at a person's works and determine whether or not they have ever been saved regardless of what their claims are. Is that or is that not true?

Or you at least question whether or not they have been saved. And I KNOW that is true, because you have questioned several people's salvation in this section of the board based on works! So are you not asking me to "prove" my salvation to you based on my works?

 

[npetreley]

Well if believers don't have to "prove" anything to anyone then why do you and others like you keep insisting that a saved person "has" to have works that follow their salvation?

Quote where I (or anyone else who is arguing against ME) said that.

But what you and others like you do is look at a person's works and determine whether or not they have ever been saved regardless of what their claims are. Is that or is that not true?

Not true.

Or you at least question whether or not they have been saved.

Yes, I question it of some people. That has nothing to do with proving anything by works, though.

 

[J. Jump]

Quote where I (or anyone else who is arguing against ME) said that.

How many would you like?

However, evidence of a transformed life should be the fruit of every believer who has that salvation.

This obviously is descriptive of true believers - the ones that are the "house" of Christ, that endure unto the end.

Originally Posted by J.D.
Also, I think the key to understanding the whole of Hebrews is the overall context - the intended audience - which was PROFESSING jewish believers. By 'professing" I mean those that professed faith in Christ, including both pretenders and genuine believers.

The warnings are applicable to those professors that turn back to temple worship, and by their apostacy, reveal their true condition. They were "enlightened" etc etc by their visible association with the new covenant, the church, the Gospel. They were not to be "jewish" christians - they were to be just Christians; that is, they were not to participate in temple worship AND church worship. They could not be under both covenants - it was one or the other, make your choice, and your choice will reveal where your heart is. Choose the temple, and you will perish with it.

Here is Amy's post agree with him. "I was going to post, but you stole my words!"

But I'm sure that won't be good enough for you either.

Yes, I question it of some people. That has nothing to do with proving anything by works, though.

Then why would you question my salvation? I have always said that I believe in the Substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, Who died and shed His blood on my behalf because I was a sinner incapable of acting in a way to save myself.

Is that not a statement of someone that possesses everlasting life?

Again on what basis would you even begin to challenge my salvation?

 

[skypair]

James, ME-ers,

That would be folks who through covetousness or fear or whatever do not allow the righteousness of Christ to work through them.

Your answer is correct. Those who don't let Christ work through them go through HELL ON EARTH. For disobedience Christians TODAY is hell! Dr Rogers used to say there is no one as sad as a carnal Christian!

And those believers who happen to be disobedient in the MK/1000 year reign of Christ on earth, they will receive the punishment they deserve then!

In fact, I like to cite Rom 5:10 in this regard. Saved from hell in eternity by His death -- save from hell on earth by His life!

There is NO hell/pit or any such thing for believers.

skypair

 

[skypair]

We are merely understanding that there is a difference between imputed righteousness which is by faith and requires no works, and practical righteousness which is by faith working in you.

What you are "understanding" is the difference between "saved by His death" and "saved by His life," James. The SOUL is saved forever by His death -- your SPIRIT is saved daily by living His life.

What are the consequences of NOT living His life? Hell on earth -- not hereafter. How many Christians do you know that are in "living hell" for their disobedience? Have you seen it? Living the "I was a great high school quarterback" 20 years later! "Those were the 'good ole days!'" GET OVER IT! (my Christian nephew) Where's Jesus in your life??? Memories and marajuana won't sustain a wife and 2 kids, dude!

skypair

 

[James_Newman]

What you are "understanding" is the difference between "saved by His death" and "saved by His life," James. The SOUL is saved forever by His death -- your SPIRIT is saved daily by living His life.

What are the consequences of NOT living His life? Hell on earth -- not hereafter. How many Christians do you know that are in "living hell" for their disobedience? Have you seen it? Living the "I was a great high school quarterback" 20 years later! "Those were the 'good ole days!'" GET OVER IT! (my Christian nephew) Where's Jesus in your life???

skypair

I would agree with you, except I can't find any scripture to back it up.

 

[skypair]

Please guys...

Christ said, "Forgive them for they know not what they do." That is clearly the situation here, right? James has been very forthcoming and his points regarding works are well-taken -- but if they were in the proper perspective.

skypair

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally Posted by James_Newman
Psalms 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

That means you can't hide from God.

Try again.
__________________

I guess James (and myself) are idiots for thinking that it meant "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there."

 

[npetreley]

I would agree with you, except I can't find any scripture to back it up.

I don't agree exactly with what he's saying, but at least he's leaning in the right direction.

“My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”

7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.

What's that about endure?!? I thought we weren't supposed to receive chastening until we were cast into hell for 1,000 years. How could we endure it in this lifetime, then? Or does God give us a double dose of chastening (i.e., punishment, according to MEers)? One load in this lifetime, and then another 1,000 years of chastening just for fun?

And what's that part about being illegitimate and not sons? What's that MEers? This can't have anything to do with salvation, because they believed, right? They made their mental assent, and that guaranteed them sonship. So this is one of those mysterious parts of the Bible that doesn't fit ME doctrine. Rip it out.

29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep

What!?! Sick here and now? Falling asleep (dying) here and now? That can't be! Their punishment doesn't come due until they die and are sent to hell for 1,000 years. I guess God just enjoys seeing us suffer. First he allows us to get sick because he disapproves of our behavior, then kills us, but that's not enough. Then we have to spend 1,000 years in hell to make the chastening complete.

 

[Lacy Evans]

I don't agree exactly with what he's saying, but at least he's leaning in the right direction.


What's that about endure?!? I thought we weren't supposed to receive chastening until we were cast into hell for 1,000 years. How could we endure it in this lifetime, then? Or does God give us a double dose of chastening (i.e., punishment, according to MEers)? One load in this lifetime, and then another 1,000 years of chastening just for fun?

And what's that part about being illegitimate and not sons? What's that MEers? This can't have anything to do with salvation, because they believed, right? They made their mental assent, and that guaranteed them sonship. So this is one of those mysterious parts of the Bible that doesn't fit ME doctrine. Rip it out.


What!?! Sick here and now? Falling asleep (dying) here and now? That can't be! Their punishment doesn't come due until they die and are sent to hell for 1,000 years. I guess God just enjoys seeing us suffer. First he allows us to get sick because he disapproves of our behavior, then kills us, but that's not enough. Then we have to spend 1,000 years in hell to make the chastening complete.

Talk about a stinking straw man. My My My.

 

[skypair]

It matters very much what you call it. If you state that earning your way into the kingdom is the "gospel of the kingdom" then you are one of those to whom Paul says, "Let them be accursed". I'd say that makes it matter if you call it a gospel.

When you start saying that accountability may lead to believers ending up in hell (or wherever, I know you ME guys can't agree on it) for 1,000 years, then you've introduce several contradictions into the Bible. One of them was mentioned here by webdog. I'd say that matters, too.

Accountability is an important topic, but your concerns about accountability do not give you the right to start changing what the BIble says or add new gospels, even if you think your intentions are good. In trying to get Christians to be more obedient YOUR WAY, you are simply expecting them to go back into bondage to the law, with the empty threat of 1,000 years in some bad place. Jesus has His own way of getting us to be obedient. Trust it.
.

Excellent sermon, npetreley!!

Whoa! Did I just say that?? YES! :applause:

skypair

 

[Hope of Glory]

Do you have any believers at your church? Have they been warned that you're preaching another gospel that is not a gospel?

Certainly! There is a church full of believers! I don't teach the heresy that you teach!

There, now I see why you only use vituperation and no Scriptures. It's so much easier to pound the virtual podium and shout, instead of having to study and think and form a well-reasoned response.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled discussion.

 

[TCGreek]

Certainly! There is a church full of believers! I don't teach the heresy that you teach!

There, now I see why you only use vituperation and no Scriptures. It's so much easier to pound the virtual podium and shout, instead of having to study and think and form a well-reasoned response.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled discussion.

You have not addressed my Hebrews question to demonstrate from the book your definition of "save soul," which you say means to rule and reign with Christ.

 

[Hope of Glory]

What's that about endure?!? I thought we weren't supposed to receive chastening until we were cast into hell for 1,000 years. How could we endure it in this lifetime, then? Or does God give us a double dose of chastening (i.e., punishment, according to MEers)? One load in this lifetime, and then another 1,000 years of chastening just for fun?

Umm... Mind showing me where any of us said that we aren't chastized in this life?

Sometimes, we even suffer for the actions of others.

And what's that part about being illegitimate and not sons? What's that MEers? This can't have anything to do with salvation, because they believed, right? They made their mental assent, and that guaranteed them sonship. So this is one of those mysterious parts of the Bible that doesn't fit ME doctrine. Rip it out.

Last I checked, bastards are also children of the father.

 

[Plain Old Bill]

First thing, it is not legal to question ones salvation on this board . Do it again and I will turn you in myself.

Next You know it gets a little old you calvinist pack up like a group of coyotes on one guy and demmand they answer each of your personal questions and then riducule them if they can't keep up with five or six of you at a time. This is what I call a real sense of real christian fair play.

Now that I've vented, what is an ME?:godisgood:

 

[J. Jump]

Now that I've vented, what is an ME?

ME stands for Millenial Exclusion, which really is an opponents derogatory way of referring to those of us that believe in and preach the gospel of the kingdom.

The gospel of the kingdom is the good news for those that are spiritually alive in Christ, that they can rule and reign with the King of kings and the Lord of lords in His coming kingdom if they will believe and live a life of obedience, faithfulness and overcoming (Satan, the flesh and the world).

While that is a very basic definition I hope that helps.

 

[PastorSBC1303]

Next You know it gets a little old you calvinist pack up like a group of coyotes on one guy and demmand they answer each of your personal questions and then riducule them if they can't keep up with five or six of you at a time. This is what I call a real sense of real christian fair play.

Let's be fair here, this does not just happen by "Calvinists" around here.

really is an opponents derogatory way of referring to those of us that believe in and preach the gospel of the kingdom.

I don't follow you here, how is shortening a name to initials derogatory?

 

[Hope of Glory]

I don't follow you here, how is shortening a name to initials derogatory?

That's not the part that's intened to be derogatory.

It would be like calling a Christian who preaches against sodomy a "human hater" and shortening it to "HH".

It's mostly done by those who are devoid of any ability to use Scripture, so they simply stoop to name-calling, questioning the salvation of other brothers, etc.

However, it doesn't bother me, so I'll use it. (FWIW, the name of our former company before we moved was "Spic and Mick" based on the fact that my wife is from Puerto Rico and my family is pretty much as Irish as they come. I don't care much for PC, so "ME" it is!)

 

[Hope of Glory]

You have not addressed my Hebrews question to demonstrate from the book your definition of "save soul," which you say means to rule and reign with Christ.

I posted three pages on it about two weeks ago, and you didn't like it then. Why would it be different this time?