I was sad when they hanged Saddam

[Bro. Curtis]

You didn't answer. Wanna try again ?

 

[Bro. Curtis]

I sense some inconsistency here.

Do you want us to take your posts for what they say, or what we think is implied ?

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to answer this.

 

[tragic_pizza]

But it does take some introspection to answer my question in order to set the stage to receive your answer from me.

C'mon, try.

 

[JonC]

Why would it be a sin to pledge allegiance to another flag. That's silly. I am a Canadian, and while attending college in America I had no problem pledging allegiance to the American flag. Do you have a chip on your shoulder. If you are going to be a missionary to another nation you have to become as one of them, not distance yourself from them.
I don't see your point.
.

DHK,

I have no chip on my shoulder, and can not understand why you would think so. While in Germany, we honored the German flag and respected the country. I pledge to my country.

About eating meat, I think you’d also find that Paul warned against doing so if you couldn’t do it with faith. If you do not have the faith that it is OK to eat meat, you shouldn’t eat meat. If you doubt that pledging to a nations flag is right, and think it may dishonor God, you’d be better not to do so.

I know, you probably still don’t get my point, as I’ve simply restated what I said earlier.

I’ll rephrase. If you feel that it is a sin against God, don’t do it. You may be right, or wrong in your convictions, however if you deliberately commit what you feel is a sin, you are sinning.

I think it is silly not to pledge allegiance to the country also, but what I think is irrelevant to those who feel they would be a sin.

 

[tragic_pizza]

Well said, JonC.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

But it does take some introspection to answer my question in order to set the stage to receive your answer from me.

C'mon, try.

Nope. This has nothing to do with agreement. It has to do with how you complain when folks read too much into posts of yours, and now your complaining that people don't read enough.

So I can't answer, 'cuz the question makes no sense to me. Does my question make sense to you ?

Do you want us to take your posts for what they say, or what we think is implied ?

 

[DHK]

DHK,

I have no chip on my shoulder, and can not understand why you would think so. While in Germany, we honored the German flag and respected the country. I pledge to my country.

About eating meat, I think you’d also find that Paul warned against doing so if you couldn’t do it with faith. If you do not have the faith that it is OK to eat meat, you shouldn’t eat meat. If you doubt that pledging to a nations flag is right, and think it may dishonor God, you’d be better not to do so.

I know, you probably still don’t get my point, as I’ve simply restated what I said earlier.

I’ll rephrase. If you feel that it is a sin against God, don’t do it. You may be right, or wrong in your convictions, however if you deliberately commit what you feel is a sin, you are sinning.

I think it is silly not to pledge allegiance to the country also, but what I think is irrelevant to those who feel they would be a sin.

If it is against the law it has nothing to do with ethics.
For example the eithical situations that Paul spoke of in Romans 14:
--Observing one day more holy than another;
--abstaining from certain foods; etc.

These had nothing to do with civil law. Paul would never advocate breaking the law (Rom.13:1-4). The law is there for us to keep, no matter what our convictions say. Paul said:

Acts 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men.
--How could he have a conscience void of offence toward man if he broke the law?
"Whatsoever is not of faith is sin."
But you can "of faith" keep the law, for the Bible commands us to do so. The law (or government) is a God-ordained institution.

 

[JonC]

I see what you are saying.

However, how could he have a conscience void of offence toward God if he broke the command of God?

If we are in a country where it is illegal to practice Christianity, or share the Word of God, do we refrain from our faith and practice to adhere to the law of that land? If we live in an area where the only legal faith is the Muslim religion, do you feel that it is the commandment of God to convert to Islam?

When we feel that the law of man is opposed to the command of God, I think that we obey the command of God. ( of course, the issue that started this response was the JW’s refusal to show allegiance to a nation, which is not illegal).

 

[DHK]

I see what you are saying.

When we feel that the law of man is opposed to the command of God, I think that we obey the command of God. ( of course, the issue that started this response was the JW’s refusal to show allegiance to a nation, which is not illegal).

Let me use the J.W.'s in two separate examples.

In one nation they taught directly against the law of the land--which was a dictatorship--a mandatory two year service in the army. That teaching is directly contrary to the law whether they or you agree with it or not. There is nothing Biblically wrong with serving in the army and defending your nation. If it is the law and you preach and teach against it, it is akin to treason, and you transgress the law of God.

In another instance the J.W.'s were kicked out of Singapore at one time because of their aggressive tract distribution program. I can't remember all the details of the incident, but if they were warned to stop and didn't they broke the law. One could sympathize with them and say that if it happened to them then the Baptists could be next. Or, one could simply say, that no doubt they were warned, did not heed the warning, and consequently paid the prcie of breaking the law. After all, are there not other ways of evangelization? There are some people from Singapore on this board that come from very good Baptist Churches that have no problem reaching the lost. The "J.W. waY" is not the only way.

The Bible says that we must be "wise as serpents but harmless as doves."

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK speaking of Paul: How could he have a conscience void of offence toward man if he broke the law?
"Whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

HP: “Ac 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.” Are you now to tell us that if we break man’s laws we are 'automatically' saddled with an offensive conscience?

 

[JonC]

DHK,

If I understand you correctly, you are not opposed to “breaking the law” if it requires you to do something that is biblically wrong. Since pledging allegiance and serving in the military is not biblically wrong, it would be against Gods Word to avoid such actions if it is required by law.

I’m not trying to put words in your mouth, just trying to make sure I understand your point (if you feel I understood you incorrectly, please feel to explain it more to me. Sometimes I’m a little slow on the intake).

If that is your position, I agree with you on that.

What I don’t agree with you on is that everyone considers those actions as biblically acceptable.

Those who feel serving in the military as against Gods Word are equally convinced by Scripture of that opinion. They interoperate, for example, not taking oaths as applying to not pledging to a nation. They see pledging one’s allegiance, be it serving in the military or pledging to a flag, as in direct opposition to the Bible. That is not my position. I am an active duty soldier. But if they consider that as biblically wrong, they shouldn’t do it. They should, however, be willing to suffer the legal consequences for following their beliefs.

There are some things in the Bible with which Christians have a difference of opinion. It is not my duty to change their minds. If they are a Christian, they belong to God. They must work out their own faith with these type of actions.

I think that military service is not only my duty as an American, but my duty as a Christian. If you are able to serve in the military, and are 17-41 years of age, your nation HAS called on you. Those who are willing to serve are either serving in the active duty now, or are in the guard, reserves, or IRR, ready to serve if needed.

However, if you don’t join the military, what is that to me? I don’t think less of you. If you feel you would be acting against God to pledge your allegiance to the country, what is that to me?

 

[DHK]

HP: “Ac 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.” Are you now to tell us that if we break man’s laws we are 'automatically' saddled with an offensive conscience?

The law of the Sanhedrin was not legal or Roman law. It was man's law, not God's law. They were not breaking the law when they broke the law of the "tradition of the Sanhedrin." The Sanhedrin had threatened them not to preach. They preached. What law had they broken? None.

 

[DHK]

However, if you don’t join the military, what is that to me? I don’t think less of you. If you feel you would be acting against God to pledge your allegiance to the country, what is that to me?

I believe that we agree Jon.
It doesn't matter to me if a person in this country or in America join the military or not. We live in democracies. Not everyone has that luxury. In some nations it is not an option. It is a requirement, and failure for young men to join the army for a minimum of two years is breaking the law with a consequent jail term. Nations run by dictatorships are not kind to law breakers. My original point in bringing this up was that cults like the J.W.'s preach against the government in this way bringing a bad name on Christ and Christianity in general, and in the long run make it more difficult for missionaries to enter the country. Evangelism becomes stifled. We are not called to go against the laws of the nation but to work within them.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: The law of the Sanhedrin was not legal or Roman law. It was man's law, not God's law. They were not breaking the law when they broke the law of the "tradition of the Sanhedrin." The Sanhedrin had threatened them not to preach. They preached. What law had they broken? None.

HP: OK, let’s assume you are correct. Is it always or ever wrong to break God’s laws if they are not the legal law of the land and we do not live in a Theocracy?

What I hope that you might come to the place of recognizing is that moral law and civil law are not one in the same, that the letter of the law and the spirit of the law are indeed different matters, and that one can, at least at times, violate civil law without any violation of moral law, just as we can violate moral law without any violation of civil law.

David violated the letter of God’s law, yet Scripture informs us that he was guiltless. There are multitudes of instances where civil law can be violated without incurring any penalty as well, moral or otherwise, due to extenuating circumstances, etc.

It is an oversimplification to suggest that every violation of civil law is a violation of God’s moral law or Scriptures commands. It is an oversimplification of Scripture to suggest that we always must be in obedience to the laws of the land in order to keep from violating God’s law or moral law.

 

[DHK]

It is an oversimplification to suggest that every violation of civil law is a violation of God’s moral law or Scriptures commands. It is an oversimplification of Scripture to suggest that we always must be in obedience to the laws of the land in order to keep from violating God’s law or moral law.

You may be right to some degree. But one has to be very careful with that kind of reasoning. It is precisely with that reasoning that preachers use for an excuse to break the law and go over the speed limit, for example. Everyone else is doing it. I am within "the spirit of the law." As long as it is not over 10 mph it is acceptable to the police and it is with the spirit of the law. They don't expect me to keep to the letter of the law. Now, I ask of you: Is this reasoning right or wrong? Is speeding right or wrong. Breaking the speed limit IMO is wrong. It is a transgression of the law, and a very good example of one.
The question is often asked: "Is it ever right to tell a lie?" Your reasoning says yes. I say no. God doesn't put us in a position where we are compelled to sin.

1Cor.10:13 is a promise which we can depend upon.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: You may be right to some degree. But one has to be very careful with that kind of reasoning. It is precisely with that reasoning that preachers use for an excuse to break the law and go over the speed limit, for example. Everyone else is doing it. I am within "the spirit of the law." As long as it is not over 10 mph it is acceptable to the police and it is with the spirit of the law. They don't expect me to keep to the letter of the law. Now, I ask of you: Is this reasoning right or wrong? Is speeding right or wrong. Breaking the speed limit IMO is wrong. It is a transgression of the law, and a very good example of one.
The question is often asked: "Is it ever right to tell a lie?" Your reasoning says yes. I say no. God doesn't put us in a position where we are compelled to sin.

HP: May I answer with the words of Paul? “1Co 10:23 ¶ All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.”:smilewinkgrin:

 

[tragic_pizza]

Do you want us to take your posts for what they say, or what we think is implied ?

Let's try "what they say."

In the post from which I was accused of calling God [a name] I was not addressing God. I did not mention God.

[personal insult removed]

 

[Alcott]

Originally Posted by Bro. Curtis Do you want us to take your posts for what they say, or what we think is implied ?

Let's try "what they say."

In the post from which I was accused of calling God "[a name]" I was not addressing God. I did not mention God.

Did you, or did you not, say "Killing is a stupid thing to do in any circumstance"? You want your posts to be taken for what they say? That is what you said; no exceptions-- you said under any circumstances.

So make up your mind... accept exactly what you say, or what we think is implied.

 

[delly]

I haven't been on the Baptist Board in a long time, but reading this thread has reminded me of why I haven't been here. The bickering and name calling ruin it for me.
Oh, by the way. Saddam Hussien got exactly what he deserved; and justice was meted out by his own people. There would never be a chance for Iraq to survive with him alive. God does let things like this happen for a reason.
In his time, people. In his time. Just watch and pray.

delly

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Delly: I haven't been on the Baptist Board in a long time, but reading this thread has reminded me of why I haven't been here. The bickering and name calling ruin it for me.

HP: Isn’t it good to see that your influence is needed? You can set the example for all of us.