Hi ITL, I see you have no interest in discussing how idioms would be best handled in translations, but continue to believe ridicule of those that do is appropriate. Translations should literally present what the text (in Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek) says, then footnote the possible idiomatic meaning or meanings.
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Idioms
- Thread starter Van
- Start date
Hi Van. You're right, I have no interest in discussing how idioms would be best handled in translations.
Full stop.
Full stop.
Some believe translations handle idioms "just fine." I do not, I believe even the best translations (NASB, HCSB, LEB, WEB and NET) handle idioms inconsistently. Some claim the idea of translating literally and footnoting the possible idiomatic meaning or meanings is my idea. But I have cited several different translations that occasionally do just that.
The principle is found in the NET, LEB, and NASB yet it is referred to as if I invented it. Twaddle
Recall I asked for an example where the principle of translating literally and footnoting the idiomatic meaning or meanings would not work. But, WOW, there are none. No need to replace the very inspired words (literally translated) with words provided by translators from their imagination.
And the lack of footnoting the idiomatic meaning is not a plus, it is a minus.
Recall I asked for an example where the principle of translating literally and footnoting the idiomatic meaning or meanings would not work. But, WOW, there are none. No need to replace the very inspired words (literally translated) with words provided by translators from their imagination.
And the lack of footnoting the idiomatic meaning is not a plus, it is a minus.
And plenty of examples of "the principle" not being followed are found in the NET, LEB and NASB as well as countless other versions. It passes the point of incredulity for you to identify the NET as following "the principle" as it constantly does the reverse of what you wish most of the time. Rarely does it give a "literal" rendering in the text.
You don't recall despite the fact that I have repeated it several times now --initially in post 21. Examples are from 1 Sam. 10:9, Mk. 1:32 and John 10:24. Are you going to pretend that you forgot?
You have no clue as to what you are claiming. There is no such thing as "literal" literally. A translator does not have the capacity to give exact replacements of the original. There has to be interpretation of the original. At best you want a more form-oriented approach. Yet many alterations have to be made to accommodate the target language for the most form-fitting ones. ;-)
Says you. It would be impratical for translations to be loaded down with tens of thousands of footnotes as the NET Bible does. And even then there are plenty of places where there is no footnote at all. You have to consult other Bible study helps. You can't expect a translation to do all the work for you.
The principle works for these three examples, as I said before. Personal incredulity is no rebuttal.
Here is the quote from post 21 concerning 1 Sam. 10:9,
"In 1 Samueul 10:9 the NASU says that God gave Saul another heart. But the idiom means "to change one's disposition or heart attitude." The NASU did not put the "literal" in the text."
Thus the comment addresses what had been done by the NASB and did not address if the principle would work. So a footnote might read "another heart" possible Hebrew idiom meaning God changed his innermost attitudes.Folks, the claim that the principle will not work has not be supported by any citation. Go figure.
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More you this and you that, you, you you. Idioms, by definition are usually difficult to understand because the word or words convey a meaning not related to the individual word meanings. "All in all" might mean this or that as an English idiom, but what is the idiomatic meaning, if any, in Koine Greek. Does it mean everything in every way? Or how about every individual within the whole group?
Some (JOJ) say scholars know many if not most of the idiomatic sayings in the bible. Thus a list could be made and the most likely meaning in modern English could be listed side by side. Next, the verses where the idiom appears in the text could be listed. Thus it would be possible to produce a translation that presented a scholarly idiomatic translation of the Bible. But it seems unlikely such a spreadsheet exists that is peer reviewed and published.
What we have now appears to be willy nilly, sometimes the idiom is translated literally, with or without footnote, sometimes idiomatically, with or without footnote, and worst of all, sometimes the idiom is translated with little regard for the literal or idiomatic meaning, i.e. something out of left field.
What we have now appears to be willy nilly, sometimes the idiom is translated literally, with or without footnote, sometimes idiomatically, with or without footnote, and worst of all, sometimes the idiom is translated with little regard for the literal or idiomatic meaning, i.e. something out of left field.
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Ephesians 1:23 could be translated idiomatically as "Now the church is His body, the spiritual deity of Him fills every individual within the church." But even if that is what it means, shouldn't we stick to a literal translation and leave the commentary to the study notes?
