If you are not Reformed, you cannot believe in eternal security

[TCassidy]

Is it folklore rumor or is it true St. Patrick ran the snakes out of Ireland?... I'm Scottish/Irish and anyone that can get rid of snakes... They give me the willies... Is a friend of mine... Kind of like the Piped-piper of Hamlin... Rats give me the willies too... So fess up T.C. what do you put in your coffee to give it that true Irish flavor... Huh!... Brother Glen

There are no snakes in Ireland. But Padraig probably had nothing to do with it.

And I don't put anything in my coffee. I don't drink coffee.

 

[tyndale1946]

There are no snakes in Ireland. But Padraig probably had nothing to do with it.

And I don't put anything in my coffee. I don't drink coffee.

I sometimes put Irish Cream in mine... I guess after all I go through doctoring up my coffee, I guess it's really not coffee anymore... My wife calls it a toddy... Black coffee... YUCK!... Then I guess you might favor a spot of tea old chap... Maybe not... Brother Glen

 

[tyndale1946]

So T.C. how come I don't see you on here?... It's like you don't exist but you do... Are you a stealth administrator?... You like my post but I checked and you're not here... At least your name doesn't show up... I think it's time for me to call it a night... I'm seeing things that aren't there or are they?... God Bless All and Good Night... Brother Glen

I guess I need new glasses... Now that's what I'm talkin about!

[The stealth Administrator strikes again! Buuwaaaahhhhaaaahhhh]

 

[Calv1]

Has anyone on the BB said you must have faith in Calvin as your Lord and Savior to be saved?

No but like everything else they read into what people say what they don't say, whether it's lack of understanding or lack or actually reading. I thought this forum was Christians debating, so far I haven't had one person try to debate me one on one, many personal attacks, so it's really not worth it, if they aren't serious about learning, or making a case, there is no point.

Enjoy my friend.

 

[Reformed]

He's not saying that Arminian believers aren't eternally secure, only that there are some logical inconsistencies between Arminianism and the Biblical doctrine of eternal security that they will have trouble reconciling it.

In other words, the problem isn't with their security, but with how they articulate it.

If that's the case, than I can understand the happy inconsistency. I once heard it described this way in an undergraduate theology class (from my scribbled notes in 1988):

"If man is not completely fallen [total depravity], then man retains the ability to choose on his own whether to respond to the gospel call, independent of the will of God. It stands to reason that if man can choose God in one circumstance, he can choose to reject God in another. Therefore, salvation is never a constant, as intellectual honesty requires the Arminian to accept both choices as valid."

Funny thing is, I rejected any form of Reformed theology back then

 

[TCassidy]

I know. It gets difficult with some people. But I didn't respond to God's call 50 years ago because the ministry was easy so I won't quit when it gets difficult.

My life's verse is still, 1 Peter 5:2 Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, exercising the oversight, not under compulsion, but voluntarily, not for dishonest gain, but willingly.

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be urgent in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with all patience and teaching.

I will keep preaching and teaching until either every lost soul is saved, and every saved soul is firmly grounded in sound doctrine, or the Lord calls me home.

As Martin Luther said to the Emperor Charles V who presided over the Diet of Worms which called Luther into question via Pope Leo X and his Papal bull Exsurge Domine, "Here I stand, I can do no other, so help me God."

 

[Calv1]

I know. It gets difficult with some people. But I didn't respond to God's call 50 years ago because the ministry was easy so I won't quit when it gets difficult.

My life's verse is still, 1 Peter 5:2 Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, exercising the oversight, not under compulsion, but voluntarily, not for dishonest gain, but willingly.

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be urgent in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with all patience and teaching.

I will keep preaching and teaching until either every lost soul is saved, and every saved soul is firmly grounded in sound doctrine, or the Lord calls me home.

As Martin Luther said to the Emperor Charles V who presided over the Diet of Worms which called Luther into question via Pope Leo X and his Papal bull Exsurge Domine, "Here I stand, I can do no other, so help me God."

Darn you, you keep dragging me back in

I think from now on I'll just post, debate, and those who wish to just irritate I'll ignore, you are right, God's GLORY is at stake, we have Christians out there who when they make money thank themselves, not giving God the glory, if saved they think they are better, or smarter, or some third party reason in themselves as to why they are saved, neighbor lost, again ignoring God's glory in it. That's the thing that bothers me the most, after all why do we want good doctrine? To win debates? Or is it so God can be glorified through what He's done.

And when I started as Arminian I didn't purposely try to aggravate people, i pushed non-sense, but at least TRIED to debate.

If we are rich, God has done it, if we are sick, God has done it, no matter our state God has predetermined it, then you point to chapter and verse and reply is "No I did it", and your jaw falls to the ground.

Hey how do I get arid of these alerts? I've disabled all ways to contact me, yet every 5 minutes "Beep", new response.

Thanks, God bless brother.

 

[Calv1]

Can't debate? Your thread title can't withstand the first few replies, since yes, there are people who are not reformed who believe in eternal security. They exist with or without your approval.

Maybe if your argument was that unreformed belief in eternal security was illogical, there could be debate, but you charge right in with an absolute that can easily be proven false.

Lets see you prove, biblically anything I said in the initial post, I dare you. One thing to say it, another to do it, I'll wait.

You didn't read what I wrote, why not read it ten times so you don't make those types of replies, I KNOW some are not Reformed and believe in Eternal Security, BUT THERE IS NO BASIS FOR IT, you chose to come in, so you can choose to get out, checkmate.

I'll await for you to put together a cogent argument against what I wrote, but don't misquote me again.

 

[JonShaff]

if saved they think they are better, or smarter, or some third party reason in themselves as to why they are saved, neighbor lost, again ignoring God's glory in it.

What? What an unscrupulous claim. Better? Smarter? Ignoring God's Glory? I'm a Non-Cal and I praise God all day long for saving my wretched Soul...How dare you judge with unrighteous judgment.

 

[Calv1]

My point is that I could reject all five points and still not hold to Arminianism.

If you deny all 5 points of Calvinism, I presume that's what you meant, or did you the 5 Arminian Remonstrants? If the former, you are Arminian by definition, whether you accept it or not. I like these people who say "I'm neither', when in fact we all are one or the other.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Did you read my comment at Post # 66? Years ago, I ran into some charismatics at a servicemen's center who accused me of holding to the damnable doctrine of eternal security. As I walked back to my barracks, the Lord brought Ephesians 2:8-9 to my mind. I recollected my salvation was a gift. As I did nothing to deserve it in the first place, I could do nothing to un-deserve it.

KNOW some are not Reformed and believe in Eternal Security, BUT THERE IS NO BASIS FOR IT,

 

[Calv1]

What? What an unscrupulous claim. Better? Smarter? Ignoring God's Glory? I'm a Non-Cal and I praise God all day long for saving my wretched Soul...How dare you judge with unrighteous judgment.

Exactly. If God didn't elect you as scriptures say, then why DID you come? Was it because you were smarter? in the right place at the right time, the question is what factor is the cause of your salvation and not your neighbors? And yes you do not give God the glory, do you even know what Arminians believe? They believe is they are rich, THEY DID IT, the bible teaches riches are from the Lord. If you are sick, it's your fault or someone gave it to you, no God decreed your sickness, again robbing God of glory. That's the ONLY REASON I'm here, is because Arminians rob God of glory, for you take the credit, YOU KEEP YOURSELF, not God, oh how you rob Him of glory, but then again doesn't sound like you fully understand what you believe.

 

[Calv1]

I beg to differ. I do not consider myself to be Reformed. Yet I do hold to the security of the Believer in Christ. IOW, I do not believe a person can "loose his\her salvation". This as "salvation" has many aspects among which are

1. Redemption - A Saved Person is bought by a price, the precious Blood of Christ. As such, there is no "Return Window" for God to get the redemption price back.
2. Adoption - We are formally made joint heirs.
3. Regeneration - We gained His Spiritual genetics. This from the Greek word used in 1 John 2:1 τεκνια. Which can be translated "my little-born ones." As with # 2, there is no formal place for disinheriting. Further, a disobedient son is still a child of his father.

Has ANYONE actually read what was wrote? I never said you DON'T BELIEVE, I said YOU HAVE NO BASIS FOR THIS SECURITY. Arminians believe THEY KEEP THEMSELVES, OR THEY FALL AWAY, SO THEREFORE SINCE ITS UP TO YOU, YOU CAN LEAVE, WALK AWAY FROM THE FAITH, AND now have no assurance. So YES, you can believe it all you want, but you have no basis for it.

Only Reformed, where the bible is clear that it is GOD WHO KEEPS US, can have security.

 

[TCassidy]

I'm a Non-Cal and I praise God all day long for saving my wretched Soul.

Please allow me to ask you a question regarding the above.

Let's say you and your neighbor, both lost, were invited to hear a well known preacher. You respond to the Gospel and are gloriously saved. Your neighbor walks out still unsaved.

What is the difference? Why did you believe and your neighbor not believe?

Are you more worthy than he?

Smarter than he?

More spiritually sensitive than he?

A better person than he?

More deserving than he?

Why did you receive the Grace of God but your neighbor didn't?

 

[JonShaff]

If God didn't elect you as scriptures say, then why DID you come? Was it because you were smarter? in the right place at the right time, the question is what factor is the cause of your salvation and not your neighbors?

Red herring

you do not give God the glory

WOW! How is this guy not banned yet?

you take the credit

Wow...I'm without words

you rob Him of glory

I'm speechless

 

[JonShaff]

Please allow me to ask you a question regarding the above.

Let's say you and your neighbor, both lost, were invited to hear a well known preacher. You respond to the Gospel and are gloriously saved. Your neighbor walks out still unsaved.

What is the difference? Why did you believe and your neighbor not believe?

Are you more worthy than he?

Smarter than he?

More spiritually sensitive than he?

A better person than he?

More deserving than he?

Why did you receive the Grace of God but your neighbor didn't?

You've already asked me that...it's a red herring

 

[TCassidy]

You've already asked me that...it's a red herring

Because you can't answer it?

 

[JonShaff]

Because you can't answer it?

what is there to answer? I do not know why the other guy isn't saved. Biblically, because he didn't believe. Edit...How you asked it is illogical. You are distracting with all the unnecessary details.

 

[TCassidy]

Biblically, because he didn't believe.

Why not? And what was better about you that caused you to believe?

You are distracting with all the unnecessary details.

No, you are avoiding answering because you know, deep down in your heart, you have to either think you are better than your neighbor, or God drew you to salvation at that meeting but did not draw your neighbor. But you are avoiding giving God all the glory. You want to hold some little part of it back for yourself.

You believed. Your neighbor didn't. The question remains: Why?

 

[JonShaff]

And what was better about you that caused you to believe?

This is deceitful, you are claiming I said I am better than someone because I believed and they didn't. Quote me on that. This is the intellectual dishonesty I'm talking about.

From the Interwebz:
Intentionally committed fallacies in debates and reasoning are called intellectual dishonesty.

deep down in your heart, you have to either think you are better than your neighbor, or God drew you to salvation at that meeting but did not draw your neighbor.

You know my heart? That's incredible. Again Red herring AND False Dichotomy, no third option?

God drew you to salvation at that meeting but did not draw your neighbor

Why did he not draw my neighbor? God doesn't get Glory out of Saved Souls?