Imprecatory Prayers - Your View?

[Baptist Believer]

The title of the thread: "Imprecatory Prayers--Your View?

Yes, I have participated in this discussion.

What has this to do with the discipleship?
Not everything in the Bible has to do with discipleship.

Yes.

To bring in discipleship at this point was an attempt to do one of two things:
1. To avoid answering Marcia's question, or
2. an attempt to derail the thread.

Perhaps.

But it does relate to the fact that a disciple of Jesus will follow the teaching of Jesus as referenced in Luke 9 (as mentioned several of us) in regarding to the way we treat our "enemies".

Keep the thread on topic.

I'm happy to do it. The only reason I responded to your previous thread was because you used an illustration that actually undermined the point you were trying to make.

For what it's worth, I'm glad the SBC has distanced themselves from Drake and his comments.

 

[Jkdbuck76]

But does anybody else here sometimes hope God will unleash his vengeance instead of his mercy?

Yes. But then I feel conviction shortly thereafter. For instance, one of my coworkers mentioned some movie coming out based on a stage play about Our Lord and His disciples being h-m-sexuals. My coworker said that Christians ought to be outraged etc etc etc.

My first thought was "who cares? Let all those who hate Christ rot in eternal hellfire for making this abomination! They hate God and don't want God and when they wake up in hell, they'll have exactly what they've always wanted---no God."

But then after about 3 seconds, I felt some conviction.

I was just as lost as those people who wrote that horrible play and are making that horrible movie. So it is ok to be outraged, but it should drive me to my knees in prayer for these people. For if they knew Jesus Christ the way I do and the way you do, they wouldn't make such a horrible movie.

I'm not holier than thou, I'm just saying that I got some old-fashioned Holy Ghost conviction on a Monday morning at work!

 

[Alcott]

Ain't it too obvious they don't work?

What might happen, though, is someone who is not "all there" will take it upon himself to 'do the will of God' on hearing about such a prayer. If you are familiar with Ring Lardner's short story, Haircut, that's an example of promulgating the suggestion that someone does not deserve to live. [not 'imprecatory prayer,' but the idea is the same]

 

[Marcia]

Thanks for all the thoughts.

I'm concluding that imprecatory prayers are only in the OT (as far as I know), mainly in the Psalms, and express, as DHK said, God's judgment that David knew of by revelation and was agreeing with. The OT often showed God's immediate judgment or annoucement of His judgment, in a way not seen as often in the NT (though we have examples like Aninias and Sapphira).

We are not in David's position and therefore as believers today cannot, I think, pray imprecatory prayers with God's blessing. I think we can pray for protection from evil people/deeds and pray for them to repent and trust Christ, but we shouldn't pray for harm to come to them and certainly not for them to die. There are no instructions in the NT that I know of to pray this way and examples of prayers are actually the opposite.

Maybe if we are feeling or thinking along the lines of wanting God to "get" someone, we can alter that and pray for His grace and justice to be on the person/situation according to His will.

 

[Harold Garvey]

a heavily populated area and he has an attendance of 60, it says a lot there.
I wonder just where and when did God say that. Did God say it to him, or what, because theres nothing in the bible like this.
I don't like obama, not one bit, but I also don't like someone wanting our president dead either, and then to go on and abuse prayer like that.

No it doesn't except there are 60 in attendence.

I can gather a crowd over ice cream and donuts with pizza served later and do "better", but IF he's preaching the truth, even in love, it doesn't draw much of a crowd these days.

Only comprimise gathers big crowds and society halls also.

he is probably referencing where some body prayed for the death of their enemies.

I'd say we should be praying that he get saved or God KILL him!

If God wants Obama dead, there's nothing stopping God, and he certainly isn't waiting for us or anyone to pray that he dies.:laugh:

 

[Marcia]

I'd say we should be praying that he get saved or God KILL him!

I certainly disagree with this!

We can pray that God saves and/or guides him, too. God often used pagan leaders (Cyrus) and even false prophets (Balaam) and I'm sure He still does!

 

[Blessed lady]

This Verse Luke,9:52-56 -- is great!!!!----I will rember it---:jesus::type::thumbs:

 

[gb93433]

The response by the SBC is at http://www.abpnews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4136&Itemid=53

 

[donnA]

No it doesn't except there are 60 in attendence.

a heavily populated area, yet no growth,,,, means nothing to you.

it doesn't draw much of a crowd these days.

draws whoever God draws, it's not man, but God.

Only comprimise gathers big crowds and society halls also.

really? I seem to remember a big crowd gather to hear the gospel, and 3000 were saved in one day at one preaching. what compromise there?

 

[Revmitchell]

Thanks for all the thoughts.

I'm concluding that imprecatory prayers are only in the OT (as far as I know), mainly in the Psalms, and express, as DHK said, God's judgment that David knew of by revelation and was agreeing with. The OT often showed God's immediate judgment or annoucement of His judgment, in a way not seen as often in the NT (though we have examples like Aninias and Sapphira).

We are not in David's position and therefore as believers today cannot, I think, pray imprecatory prayers with God's blessing. I think we can pray for protection from evil people/deeds and pray for them to repent and trust Christ, but we shouldn't pray for harm to come to them and certainly not for them to die. There are no instructions in the NT that I know of to pray this way and examples of prayers are actually the opposite.

Maybe if we are feeling or thinking along the lines of wanting God to "get" someone, we can alter that and pray for His grace and justice to be on the person/situation according to His will.

What is in the OT is only different today if Christ fulfilled it through His death. Do you think imprecatory prayers were a foreshadowing of Christ? However, what would be important to consider is the context. In the end all we have is David's example and no other passage for or against such prayers.

The passages where Jesus said "You have heard it said" does not mean that God's commandments have changed. Some have bee done away with because Christ fulfilled them but for example our commandments to love others is the same in the OT as it is in the NT. When Jesus said "You have heard it said" that eludes to nothing more than they got it wrong in the first place. While the gospels are placed in the NT at the time of Christ they were still under the OT law until Christ died.

Leviticus 19:18, 34 spoke very clearly to how to treat others. The commandment to love others was clearly in place long before the NT.

 

[gb93433]

No it doesn't except there are 60 in attendence.

In an area of over 8 Million people?

I can gather a crowd over ice cream and donuts with pizza served later and do "better", but IF he's preaching the truth, even in love, it doesn't draw much of a crowd these days.

I have found exactly the opposite. I have found that there are people who will stand with those who tell the truth just as there were in the NT and OT and even today. A lot of the problem is that there is a lot of what I call organization preservation while they claim to be preaching the truth. There is a lot more preaching and church attendance then making disciples. If every church member were making disciples then that would not be true at all. The fact is that preaching, teaching, Sunday School attendance, and church attendance is down. I believe there is a direct correlation between making disciples and church attendance. I know a church pastor who when he came to a lukewarm Baptist church of about 250 in attendance each week to a church of over 4000 by making disciples. They are responsible for training pastors and church leaders all over the world to make disciples.

Only compromise gathers big crowds and society halls also.

Then Jesus was a big compromiser. I find the issue is not opportunity but a lack of boldness. If you believe your statement then scripture is one big lie because Jesus did draw large crowds. Many times I find that statement to be made by those who are in small churches and spend a lot of time as back slappers rather than going into their communities and doping the hard work of making disciples.

 

[DHK]

In an area of over 8 Million people?

Do we always judge a work by its numbers? Why not try to work in India or China, the two largest nations on earth, each one having a population exceeding over a billion? How many Baptist Churches are there that number over 60 in those nations? And if you went as a missionary there how long would it take you, as an American, to establish a church of 60? What about in some of the Muslim nations: Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia? Numbers often don't mean much. There are other factors to consider.

I have found exactly the opposite. I have found that there are people who will stand with those who tell the truth just as there were in the NT and OT and even today. A lot of the problem is that there is a lot of what I call organization preservation while they claim to be preaching the truth. There is a lot more preaching and church attendance then making disciples. If every church member were making disciples then that would not be true at all. The fact is that preaching, teaching, Sunday School attendance, and church attendance is down. I believe there is a direct correlation between making disciples and church attendance. I know a church pastor who when he came to a lukewarm Baptist church of about 250 in attendance each week to a church of over 4000 by making disciples. They are responsible for training pastors and church leaders all over the world to make disciples.

Is this American theology or Biblical theology? Was this true of every church that Paul started: Iconium, Lystra, Derbe, etc.? How do you know that many of the churches he started were not small churches? In fact they were. Aquilla and Priscilla's church met in their home. There were many churches in the NT that got no bigger than could be accomodated in one's home. Why are you hung up on numbers? I don't believe the Bible portrays it that way.

Then Jesus was a big compromiser. I find the issue is not opportunity but a lack of boldness. If you believe your statement then scripture is one big lie because Jesus did draw large crowds. Many times I find that statement to be made by those who are in small churches and spend a lot of time as back slappers rather than going into their communities and doping the hard work of making disciples.

Jesus drew large crowds. Are you Jesus? Can you feed the 5,000? Can you do the miracles that Jesus did? The record clearly states that the great majority followed him because of the signs that he did; because he fed them. He told them not to follow him "for the bread that perishes..."
You spend a lot of time on judging people who are not making disciples, without knowing the hearts or the situations of others.

 

[gb93433]

Do we always judge a work by its numbers? Why not try to work in India or China, the two largest nations on earth, each one having a population exceeding over a billion?

I was just wondering what your post at this time had to do with your earlier request to stay on the subject?

To bring in discipleship at this point was an attempt to do one of two things:
1. To avoid answering Marcia's question, or
2. an attempt to derail the thread.

 

[gb93433]

Do we always judge a work by its numbers? Why not try to work in India or China, the two largest nations on earth, each one having a population exceeding over a billion?

Mt 4:19, Mt. 28:19 20. Are those not numbers?

Jesus drew large crowds. Are you Jesus? Can you feed the 5,000? Can you do the miracles that Jesus did?

The Bible gives the answer in Jn. 1, 5, and 14

 

[DHK]

I was just wondering what your post at this time had to do with your earlier request to stay on the subject?

To bring in discipleship at this point was an attempt to do one of two things:
1. To avoid answering Marcia's question, or
2. an attempt to derail the thread.

It has much to do with the topic, and I am not derailing the thread at all.
A man is being harshly judged by some (including you) because he has a small number of people (60), within a large populace (8 million).

My question was quite direct and clear. In the light of the above condemnation, why are you so quick to condemn solely on the basis of numbers? Why are numbers so important to you? I know some churches that are completely numbers-based churches--using any means possible to draw people to church--even to the point of bribery. Are numbers that important in the sight of God as spiritual growth? I thought you stressed discipleship more than numbers. I guess I was wrong.

The point of my post is that often there are other factors that one does not know--why the church may be smaller. That is why I gave illustrations from other nations. Not every place is the same; not even every place in America is the same. Adoniram Judson worked seven years in Burma before he saw one soul come to Christ. Was he a failure.
The thief on the cross never saw any one come to Christ.
Stephen never led anyone to Christ, or discipled anyone. And yet he saw Christ, not sitting, but standing on the right hand of the Father, waiting to receive Stephen into heaven. His face (Stephen') shone like an angel's. Yet he never led one soul to Christ. I suppose he was a failure, eh? He never had a discipleship program. He didn't have "numbers."

 

[LadyEagle]

Didn't Noah preach 120 years and not one convert?

 

[gb93433]

A man is being harshly judged by some (including you) because he has a small number of people (60), within a large populace (8 million).

I hear that from those who are not making disciples but never from those who are. Los Angeles is a very urban area of about 8+ million people. If people get out there and do ministry people will come to Christ. It is not rocket science. Show me one man now or ever who earnestly prayed and never had any ministry?

My question was quite direct and clear. In the light of the above condemnation, why are you so quick to condemn solely on the basis of numbers? Why are numbers so important to you?

Where did I ever condemn anyone or ever measure discipleship on the basis of numbers alone? Jesus had 12. How much impact did HE make? Numbers represent souls whom God created. If God considered them important enough to create should we not consider them too. If you are lazy, do not pray, and have no relationship with God you will not have any numbers. If you do not make disciples you will have no numbers. If your God is small then it is doubtful that you will have many if any numbers.

I know some churches that are completely numbers-based churches--using any means possible to draw people to church--even to the point of bribery. Are numbers that important in the sight of God as spiritual growth? I thought you stressed discipleship more than numbers. I guess I was wrong.

Addition never gives the same numbers that multiplication does. If one man disciples one man every three years and each person he disciples disciples one man every three years and if he started when he was 24 and kept making disciples until the age of 75 he will have seen 131,072 people discipled as a result of his ministry. Know of any churches that large? Know of any men and women who were discipled that you did not see any spiritual growth. I spent many years in a church going to church each week and never knew Christ until a man shared his faith with me. I never saw any discipled made and never had any ministry until I took Jesus' command seriously and personalized it. I believe that too many think discipleship is just another Bible study. Discipleship is intentionally pouring our lives into the lives of others and teaching them to walk with God and do as Jesus commanded.

How hard is it to make on the average one disciple every three years especially in America? I have friends who have gone to communist countries where Christians were executed and jailed for sharing their faith and have made disciples.

The point of my post is that often there are other factors that one does not know--why the church may be smaller. Adoniram Judson worked seven years in Burma before he saw one soul come to Christ. Was he a failure.

He fished and God blessed with numbers did he not? I was born not far from that small church and talked with another about pastoring in that area. So I am quite familiar with that area.

Stephen never led anyone to Christ, or discipled anyone.

What proof do you have of that? Discipleship is assumed. How would the church have ever grown otherwise. Did they not follow Jesus and He made disciples in the face of tremendous adversity. Christians lost their lives and had their businesses boycotted for following Christ.

I suppose he was a failure, eh? He never had a discipleship program. He didn't have "numbers."

The problem is that you see discipleship as just another program. Discipleship is not a program but an investment in the lives of others. It takes time and hard work. I cannot think of anyone I know or ever met who was making disciples who was not also praying, reading and studying his Bible, attending church, and sharing his faith.

Read http://www.bibleteacher.org/Dm118_8.htm

Then see if you can come back with the same comments.

 

[gb93433]

Didn't Noah preach 120 years and not one convert?

Do you have a reference for that?

 

[Harold Garvey]

Didn't Noah preach 120 years and not one convert?

Yep, and he only "tickled" ears in his own family!:laugh:

When a man of God preaches the righteousness of God and the depravity of man, it causes a lot of repudiation of what he's preaching, except by those who hear him for the truth's sake.

Judging a man's ministry by mere numbers is kinda dumb, especially when the one judging isn't either part of his congregation or doesn't know the mentality of the surrounding populous.

Your input ought to be wel regarded: the people didn't want to hear Noah because they were too busy at the year-round party.

 

[Harold Garvey]

Do you have a reference for that?

be for real, we all know only eight boarded the ark. If there were other converts I'm sure they also would have boarded to escape the wrath of God.

I'm amazed at your statement, amazed!