In Christ, Eph 1:4: A question for Reformed Baptists

[GordonSlocum]

Gordon,

One cause of concern. If you are a willing participant, then God has a basis to hold you accountable. However, my question is how would this not make God culpable for sin? The "secondary causes defense" is a horrible defense by Calvinism. Consider this article that I've written which evaluates that very issue: http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/Complaints/ac_sin.html

Not sure I fully understand you question but I will try.

I will attempt to put it into my words. I think you are asking "Is God the author of sin?"

God created everything. He created freedom to rebel. If creating the freedom to rebel means the author of the potential existence of sin then I personally don't have a problem with that.

Did God create sin? I would say no. Did God create the potential for sin? I would say yes

If I define the Authorship of sin as I understand it then in that sense God is the author of sin. Is God sinful because He creates the potential for sin? No

In one sense the fact that God created the potential for sin by permitting the freedom to rebel then in that sense God is the author of sin or freedom to sin may be the more accurate way to say it.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Reformed Believer:

Are you making God's foreknowledge into something that shapes, determines and causes a person's free choice?

It seems that you are saying that God foreknowledged all of my choices.

Are you going to put that in your book? How much do I get paid? It does seem that God's perfect knowledge does in direct and indirect ways determine our future huh? Providence.

 

[webdog]

Prove it. I say that if God has perfect knowledge, and He does, then we will always have to choose in a manner that will be consistent with His perfect knowledge. You might say that is philosophical.... so prove it is not true philosophically. I have bible that backs me up. Psalms 139 for one. Where are your bible verses that says it is not true? Defeat it philosophically.

Prove what... the definition of the word foreknowledge? Prove purple is really a color...
So God only chooses based on a single attribute, omniscience? What about omnipresence, omnipotence, omnitemporalness? Do we just leave those off?

 

[reformedbeliever]

Prove what... the definition of the word foreknowledge? Prove purple is really a color...
So God only chooses based on a single attribute, omniscience? What about omnipresence, omnipotence, omnitemporalness? Do we just leave those off?

What political office are you running for webdog? lol

 

[npetreley]

Prove purple is really a color...

It depends on what the definition of "is" is.

 

[examiningcalvinism]

Reformed Believer

Reformed Believer,

Why wait? Why not take advantage of the free online version right now? (it's still under editting) www.examiningcalvinism.com

 

[examiningcalvinism]

Reformed Believer

Reformed Believer,

In terms of God's providence, the WCF essentially teaches that God knows everything that will come to pass because He has decreed everything that comes to pass. However, what about the things that don't come to pass, but would? Consider Matthew 11:20-24 for a moment. Then I want to you look up 1 Corinthians 10:13. How does God know what you are able to handle? How does Jesus know what these cities would have done? They weren't decreed to be done, so how?

Matthew 11:20-24
Then He began to denounce the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent. “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. Nevertheless I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day. Nevertheless I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you.”

1st Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.”

 

[reformedbeliever]

Reformed Believer,

In terms of God's providence, the WCF essentially teaches that God knows everything that will come to pass because He has decreed everything that comes to pass. However, what about the things that don't come to pass, but would? Consider Matthew 11:20-24 for a moment. Then I want to you look up 1 Corinthians 10:13. How does God know what you are able to handle? How does Jesus know what these cities would have done? They weren't decreed to be done, so how?

Matthew 11:20-24
Then He began to denounce the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent. “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. Nevertheless I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day. Nevertheless I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you.”

1st Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.”

He has perfect knowledge.........

He knows all the what ifs.... but He also knows the certainly wills. How does that change what I have asked you to prove about HIs perfect knowledge? If God knows how a man will choose, can the man choose differently? Prove it.

 

[reformedbeliever]

I see Gordon ran away.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Looks like examining ran away too. Maybe they will find proof for me.

 

[examiningcalvinism]

Reformed Believer

Reformed Believer: Because it is knowledge after the fact.

I didn't run away. I had to take a shower, and now I'm headed for lunch.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Reformed Believer: Because it is knowledge after the fact.

I didn't run away. I had to take a shower, and now I'm headed for lunch.

Examining.... sorry, Richard, there you go using that after thing with God. Remember? He is as you say omnitemporal. There is no after with God...... He is with me at my death, and in eternity future.

This does not deal with God's perfect knowledge. If God knows perfectly who will choose Him, then elects based on that knowledge, could they not choose Him? Ephesians 1:4 Just as He chose us in Him, before the foudation of the world......

I'm not off topic. I think this deals with the op perfectly. Now deal with my question, or you really have no leg to stand on.

My book........ "Dealing With Arminianism" is going to be much shorter than yours......:thumbs:

 

[ituttut]

I trust that this dialogue will become fun and exciting, but not mean-spirited. I look forward to a stimulating conversation.

Some of what you say points to some understanding of the "dispensational" gospel of by faith we believe by the grace of God through faith of the elect, Jesus Christ, we will be saved. This is not theology of Calvinism, and it is not of Arminianism, but the "dispensational" gospel of Paul.

Am I of Paul as you are of Arminian, and others of Calvin? No, I am of the gospel of Christ Jesus that He revealed to Paul. Why do we wish to be of the theology of man, when we have the knowledge and wisdom of God given to us by our Apostle Paul? It is the Elect that gave to Paul His Gospel just as He gave the Law to Moses that became Moses' Law.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Some of what you say points to some understanding of the "dispensational" gospel of by faith we believe by the grace of God through faith of the elect, Jesus Christ, we will be saved. This is not theology of Calvinism, and it is not of Arminianism, but the "dispensational" gospel of Paul.

Am I of Paul as you are of Arminian, and others of Calvin? No, I am of the gospel of Christ Jesus that He revealed to Paul. Why do we wish to be of the theology of man, when we have the knowledge and wisdom of God given to us by our Apostle Paul? It is the Elect that gave to Paul His Gospel just as He gave the Law to Moses that became Moses' Law.

I appreciate what you are saying brother. The fact is that none of us are of any theologian. When we say calvinist or arminian, that is just a theological designation...... however loosly. Kinda like being a Baptist.

 

[ituttut]

I appreciate what you are saying brother. The fact is that none of us are of any theologian. When we say calvinist or arminian, that is just a theological designation...... however loosly. Kinda like being a Baptist.

Thanks friend in Christ for your effort of a "heads up" enlightenment. But if we are of theology are we not then of some theologian? The theologian is someone who is learned in theology or who speculates about theology. We Baptist do speculate.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Thanks friend in Christ for your effort of a "heads up" enlightenment. But if we are of theology are we not then of some theologian? The theologian is someone who is learned in theology or who speculates about theology. We Baptist do speculate.

I see what you are saying..... but as you know, theology is God study. How can we be of someone, when what we are doing is reading various authors, to compare what their theology (God study) is compared to ours. I do see your point. I don't think any of us think we are of anything but our Lord Jesus Christ. That is all I was saying. Thank you brother.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Reformed Believer: Because it is knowledge after the fact.

I didn't run away. I had to take a shower, and now I'm headed for lunch.

Using this logic, we can say we are eternally justified? I don't think so. I didn't think we were guilty until we acted, or justified until we received.

 

[examiningcalvinism]

Reformed Believer

Reformed Believer:

You wrote: "There is no after with God......"

But there is an "after" with man, and that's the point. God, being omnitemporal, is aware of every "after" of man.

You wrote: "If God knows perfectly who will choose Him, then elects based on that knowledge, could they not choose Him?"

Let's dissect this....

If God knows perfectly who will choose Him [how does He know that? answer: because God, dwelling in future, is listening to them at the alter praying], then elects based on that knowledge, could they not choose Him [from God's perspective, being omnitemporal, they already have made their choice]"

I would like for you to create an analogy of your understanding of foreknowledge. When you do, I bet that all you will do is portary determinism because you will not allow yourself to see real foreknowledge.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Reformed Believer:

You wrote: "There is no after with God......"

But there is an "after" with man, and that's the point. God, being omnitemporal, is aware of every "after" of man.

You wrote: "If God knows perfectly who will choose Him, then elects based on that knowledge, could they not choose Him?"

Let's dissect this....

If God knows perfectly who will choose Him [how does He know that? answer: because God, dwelling in future, is listening to them at the alter praying], then elects based on that knowledge, could they not choose Him [from God's perspective, being omnitemporal, they already have made their choice]"

I would like for you to create an analogy of your understanding of foreknowledge. When you do, I bet that all you will do is portary determinism because you will not allow yourself to see real foreknowledge.

Of course I'm determinist.... but not as in simple fate. God is in control of our destiny.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Reformed Believer:

You wrote: "There is no after with God......"

But there is an "after" with man, and that's the point. God, being omnitemporal, is aware of every "after" of man.

You wrote: "If God knows perfectly who will choose Him, then elects based on that knowledge, could they not choose Him?"

Let's dissect this....

If God knows perfectly who will choose Him [how does He know that? answer: because God, dwelling in future, is listening to them at the alter praying], then elects based on that knowledge, could they not choose Him [from God's perspective, being omnitemporal, they already have made their choice]"

I would like for you to create an analogy of your understanding of foreknowledge. When you do, I bet that all you will do is portary determinism because you will not allow yourself to see real foreknowledge.

So lets see...... God looks into the future, or is in the future as a man believes or does not believe, then in real time, a man is born who God in His omnitemporalness saw that he would not believe. Now this man grows up without a chance to believe because of God being omnitemporal. I think I have it now examining. :tonofbricks: