In the context if the Bible, is the word 'believe' the same as "faith'?

[cjab]

Which is the result of our initial belief, or faith. 'Trusted' and 'having believed' in this next passage are also interesting.

Ephesians 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

You see, if we don't have life until we have the Spirit in us, and in Galatians 3:2-3 says we come to faith to receive the Spirit.... Paul, speaking of our sanctification even says, having begun in the Spirit (that resulted from the hearing of faith), are we know being perfected by the flesh? The point being, there was no life yet begun when that indicial faith happened, but the ongoing faith seems to always be Spirit powered, or not from the flesh, thus it's a gift from God, but only from that point forward, the indwelling.

Dave

Eph 1:13 is poorly translated by some English versions - e.g. the NIV which is really a paraphrase of the Greek - and it cannot be properly understood apart from Eph 1:12. The Greek is quite terse, albeit not complex. Hence the word "trusted" is inserted by some translations in Eph 1:13 to overcome the terseness of the Greek, e.g. by the KJV; but, (a) no actual word appears in the Greek text here, (b) any artifically inserted word in Eph 1:13 should read "hoped" (not "trusted") because it refers back to the "first-hoped" in Eph 1:12.

The literal rendition is this:

Eph 1:12: ".....that we should be to the praise of his glory: the ones having first-hoped in Christ,"
Eph 1:13 "in whom you also [hoped], having heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise....."

As to the distinction between hope and faith:
Heb 1:11 "Now faith is the ground/support/essence/assurance/inner conviction (Gk: hypostasis) of things hoped for, that by which invisible things are proved..."

Heb 1:11 is a complex assemblance of words impregnated with nuance, and subject to extensive comment, so I'll leave it there.

 

[Van]

A good discussion. The ancient Greek meanings:

1. πείθω (peithó - verb)

There are three related Greek words for belief/believe etc., all with an etymology in Ancient Greek. The modern Greek meanings are simpler, but not necessarily reflective of the biblical usage. The ancient Greek meaning are below:

Meaning depends on the voice:

Active voice: persuade, convince, succeed through entreaty, mislead.
Mediopassive (πείθομαι): To yield, believe, put trust in.
Second perfect active (πέποιθᾰ) with passive sense: to trust, rely on.
Perfect passive (πέπεισμαι) to believe, trust (with dative).

2. πίστις (pistis - noun from πείθω)

trust in others, faith
belief in a higher power, faith
the state of being persuaded of something: belief, confidence, assurance
trust in a commercial sense: credit
faithfulness, honesty, trustworthiness, fidelity
that which gives assurance: treaty, oath, guarantee
means of persuasion: argument, proof
that which is entrusted

3. πιστεύω (pisteuó - verb from πίστις)

to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person, statement or thing), to credit
to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ)
to believe, commit (to trust), put in trust with.

A brief perusal of biblical word usage suggests that verb choice is not related to a theological distinction between initial faith and lasting faith, as the same Greek verb πιστεύω is used by Christ of different kinds of believers in the parable of the sower (specifically πιστεύω is also used of those who believe "for a while"). πιστεύω is largely preferred over πείθω by Christ in all the gospels, in every context, unless the emphasis is clearly on "persuasion" (cf. Luke 16:31). This reflects πιστεύω epitomizing the religio-legal (i.e. formal) "have confidence/trust" sense of believe.

Whereas the less formal and secular verb πείθω has a primary meaning of persuade / convince, which has this emphasis contextual to any specific object, whether secular or religious. Such that even if it were possible that πείθω might have been used to distinguish initial faith from lasting/saving faith (supposing there to be an essential distinction which I am not personally convinced of), the evidence suggests this doesn't determine New Testament verb choice, but that verb choice is mainly determined by emphasis.

However, in the context of secular/fanatical belief in unrighteousness or false prophets, I discern πείθω is more likely.

Hi Cjab,

I hold a very different view. The merit or lack their of "faith" is not found in Greek word form, but in whether or not God credited that "faith" as righteousness. We see in the account of Abraham, that he trusted in God's promise, and would follow God's instructions, even when they seemed to run counter to His promise. The NT clearly teaches we must have a "faith like Abraham." Romans 4:16

Note that the form of the Greek word translated faith is a noun, genitive single female. And note it is preceded by the preposition "ek" meaning out from, or arising from, or based upon. In my opinion, this phrase refers, usually, to God's action of crediting our faith as righteousness, just as God did concerning Abraham's faith.

Consider these verses and let me know what you think:
Romans 3:26,
Romans 4:12, 16,
Romans 5:1
Romans 9:30, 32,
Romans 10:6
Romans 14:23

Galatians 2:16
Galatians 3:2, 5, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, 22, 24
Galatians 5:5

James 2:24.

 

[Van]

So what action by God arises from or is based upon God crediting our faith as righteousness. He transfers the individual whose faith as been credited as righteousness into Christ. See 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and James 2:5.

Thus the distinctive between the human action to believe in something fully or partially, and the Romans 5:1 action arising from our faith ( justification) is God crediting that faith as righteousness.

 

[Dave...]

@Van
@cjab
@Dave G
@David Lamb
@Reformed
@Wesley Briggman
@kyredneck
@Christforums
@Deacon

It appears that Romans 1:17 is speaking of an initial and then ongoing faith. I'm going to throw in verse 16 also.

Romans 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."

Verse 17 NIV For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

Some people believe that Romans 1:17 is speaking of Gods faithfulness, and then our faith. I don't think that Romans 1:17 requires that kind of leap in interpretation, yet. I do believe that idea comes from verses like Romans 3:3.

Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect?

The KJV translates some verses like Romans 3:22 "the faith of Jesus" instead of 'faith in Jesus'. Maybe that's where the idea of Romans 1:17 being God's faithfulness and our faith, AKA, "faith to faith" comes from, but in my mind there was still something that wasn't adding up with that idea. I think that the distinction between the initial faith and ongoing faith could help clear that up. I disagree with the KJV translation, but maybe there was a reason that they read into it that way.

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

"Faith" in this passage (Gal. 2:20) is speaking of the ongoing faith. Some translations have this passage as the 'faith of the Son of God', not 'faith in the Son of God'. If we see the life as beginning with the indwelling, and powered by the Spirit, and not the flesh, then in that context, I can see why it would be called the 'faith of Christ', because it is Spirit powered, as I noted in a previous post. However, it is important to note that this still would be distinct from the initial faith that brings the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Paul actually calls that faith living "in the flesh", and not "by the flesh", so I would read too much into that as a far as the "flesh" is concerned.

So this distinction between initial faith and ongoing faith will have ramifications all throughout Scripture. It could clear some things up also.

Dave

 

[Van]

@Van
SNIP

Romans 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."

Verse 17 NIV For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

SNIP

As I stated, Romans 1:17 says a righteousness that is out of or arises from or is based upon faith.

I did not see anythings else that addressed my post.

 

[Van]

Some people use the phrase "saving faith" and seem to think a particular content and/or a particular zealousness of that belief requires God to accept the person's faith. What scripture says is if God credits the person's faith as righteousness, that faith is saving faith. Some might object, claiming God saves those with unaccredited faith. But surely they jest.

Needless to say, such a "saving faith" would make salvation depend upon the person who wills or does things to be saved, and that is unbiblical nonsense. Romans 9:16

Others steadfastly claim God first instills faith into an individual, and then credits the person's faith as righteousness. But surely they jest.

 

[Dave G]

The KJV translates some verses like Romans 3:22 "the faith of Jesus" instead of 'faith in Jesus'.

That's because the KJV translators correctly rendered it from the Greek...
Take a look:

" δικαιοσύνη δὲ θεοῦ διὰ πίστεως ἰησοῦ χριστοῦ εἰς πάντας καὶ ἐπὶ πάντας τοὺς πιστεύοντας οὐ γάρ ἐστιν διαστολή"
"Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:"

...where " ἰησοῦ " literally means "from Jesus", as in "of" ...
Think "Saul of Tarsus", which means "Saul from Tarsus".

Some other translations in English incorrectly render it as "in Jesus" when that is not what the Greek actually says.

Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect?

I think you may be missing something a little more defining in that verse, similar to what I showed in the above.
Here it is, in the Greek:

" τί γὰρ εἰ ἠπίστησάν τινες μὴ ἡ ἀπιστία αὐτῶν τὴν πίστιν τοῦ θεοῦ καταργήσει"
" For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?"

...where " θεοῦ" literally means "from God".
The NKJV leaves "of" alone in the above verse, but changes "faith" to "faithfulness"

There is a difference, my friend... and as in other threads, it's this lack of accuracy to the Greek which leads me to not recommend the NKJV ( or any other English translation that does this ) to anyone.
Also, and it may seem like I'm trying to make this more obvious, but...
"...faith from God..."?

Take a minute and let that settle in.

 

[Dave G]

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Once again, the KJV and NKJV do not agree with each other:

" I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

....and it's because of that little word "of", which means "by or from".
Here, take a look at yet another verse that the KJV and NKJV render differently:

" I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." ( Galatians 2:20, KJV ).

" I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the [life] which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. " ( Galatians 2:20, NKJV )

The KJV says that Paul lives his life in the flesh by the faith from the Son of God.
While in the NKJV, Paul is telling us that he lives his life by faith in the Son of God.

One "little" word change is all it takes ( doesn't it? ) to change the entire meaning of a sentence.
"Of", which means "from", versus "in".

If we see the life as beginning with the indwelling, and powered by the Spirit, and not the flesh, then in that context, I can see why it would be called the 'faith of Christ', because it is Spirit powered, as I noted in a previous post.

Agreed.

 

[Dave...]

As I stated, Romans 1:17 says a righteousness that is out of or arises from or is based upon faith.

I did not see anythings else that addressed my post.

Hey Van

I think that goes back to the OT, called the Law, and the NT, called, and sometimes assumed into the word "faith". Yet another way of understanding the term 'faith'. The righteousness that comes from faith means the NT faith, as opposed to the Law. We see the Law contrasted with faith all the time. In that sense, the term faith represents the NT, or the Gospel in context, while at the same time meaning faith in the traditional way. That's the way I see it. In my mind, the righteousness by faith simply means that, Jesus' righteousness, revealed through the Gospel, comes by faith in Jesus. It's a NT reality that was waited upon before the promise could be given.

Here's a few passages that apply.

Galatians 3:18-29For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise. What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Compare to Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Apart from the earthly promises, the types, there was also spiritual promises. Those which the types pointed towards. These promises began to be fulfilled with the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus, and the giving of the Holy Spirit's indwelling at Pentecost. Understanding that "faith" in that Romans passage implies the Gospel in it's context, we then can know that the righteousness by faith means righteousness by faith in Jesus, the Gospel. Nobody was ever saved by the Law, not even Abraham. His faith was credited as righteousness in future promises, that being Jesus, as opposed to the Law. In other words, Abraham was saved just like we are, from what Jesus did, the only difference was that He had to wait for the promises, and the Gospel He trusted in was not completely revealed in his time. It was an OT understanding of it. Isaac, picturing Jesus. Abraham, trusting that God would raise Him from the dead, just as Jesus was raised from the dead. That all pictured the cross. Abraham, trusted in types, and a promise of a future Messiah, a deliverer, thus, a righteousness by faith, just like us, but we trust in the revealed Gospel.

god crediting a persons faith as righteousness, is simply God crediting them with the righteousness of God, what Jesus did. Now credit could have a bigger context in the OT because there was not yet a righteousness of God yet established to credit them. It was credited based on the future promises of God. The Same promises that we look back of today. Today, we are credited with something that has already happened. They, OT believers, were credited with something still future. think about that in this the context of defining what this next passage is saying.

Romans 3:25-26 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Dave

 

[Van]

Hey Van

I think that goes back to the OT, called the Law, and the NT, called, and sometimes assumed into the word "faith". Yet another way of understanding the term 'faith'. The righteousness that comes from faith means the NT faith, as opposed to the Law. We see the Law contrasted with faith all the time. In that sense, the term faith represents the NT, or the Gospel in context, while at the same time meaning faith in the traditional way. That's the way I see it. In my mind, the righteousness by faith simply means that, Jesus' righteousness, revealed through the Gospel, comes by faith in Jesus. It's a NT reality that was waited upon before the promise could be given.

Here's a few passages that apply.

Galatians 3:18-29For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise. What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Compare to Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Apart from the earthly promises, the types, there was also spiritual promises. Those which the types pointed towards. These promises began to be fulfilled with the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus, and the giving of the Holy Spirit's indwelling at Pentecost. Understanding that "faith" in that Romans passage implies the Gospel in it's context, we then can know that the righteousness by faith means righteousness by faith in Jesus, the Gospel. Nobody was ever saved by the Law, not even Abraham. His faith was credited as righteousness in future promises, that being Jesus, as opposed to the Law. In other words, Abraham was saved just like we are, from what Jesus did, the only difference was that He had to wait for the promises, and the Gospel He trusted in was not completely revealed in his time. It was an OT understanding of it. Isaac, picturing Jesus. Abraham, trusting that God would raise Him from the dead, just as Jesus was raised from the dead. That all pictured the cross. Abraham, trusted in types, and a promise of a future Messiah, a deliverer, thus, a righteousness by faith, just like us, but we trust in the revealed Gospel.

god crediting a persons faith as righteousness, is simply God crediting them with the righteousness of God, what Jesus did. Now credit could have a bigger context in the OT because there was not yet a righteousness of God yet established to credit them. It was credited based on the future promises of God. The Same promises that we look back of today. Today, we are credited with something that has already happened. They, OT believers, were credited with something still future. think about that in this the context of defining what this next passage is saying.

Romans 3:25-26 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Dave

I have no idea what you are going on about. The meaning of faith is not at issue. Faith, if credited by God becomes saving faith. Please address that issue.

To Repeat: Thus the distinctive between the human action to believe in something fully or partially, and the Romans 5:1 action arising from our faith ( justification) is God crediting that faith as righteousness.

 

[Dave...]

As I stated, Romans 1:17 says a righteousness that is out of or arises from or is based upon faith.

I did not see anythings else that addressed my post.

Hi Van,

I'm not sure what you're getting at. The righteousness of God that justifies us is Jesus' righteousness, as fully man, and fully God, obeying God's Law perfectly perfectly, which is what the Law demands. That's why it's a curse for us. That's why it is impossible for us, but possible for God.

Romans explains it.

3:21-26 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Romans 5:18-19Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.

We obtain that righteousness by being in Christ. Thus, as Romans 10 states, that Jesus is the end of the Law for everyone who believes.

 

[Van]

Hi Van,

I'm not sure what you're getting at. The righteousness of God that justifies us is Jesus' righteousness, as fully man, and fully God, obeying God's Law perfectly perfectly, which is what the Law demands. That's why it's a curse for us. That's why it is impossible for us, but possible for God.

Romans explains it.

3:21-26 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Romans 5:18-19Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.

We obtain that righteousness by being in Christ. Thus, as Romans 10 states, that Jesus is the end of the Law for everyone who believes.

1) I said our righteousness arises from God crediting our faith and on that basis, transferring us into Christ spiritually. That is how we become spiritually "in Christ."

2) Once in Christ, spiritually within Christ, we undergo the washing of regeneration, which justifies us and thus made righteous, and perfect, we can be sealed within Christ spiritually with the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 2:5 says we are made alive (regenerated and justified) together with Christ, thus when God transfers us spiritually into Christ.

3) The point you may be missing, as I do not believe you have acknowledged it, is God's action to credit our faith as righteous. This does not make us righteous, but does provide the basis for God transferring us into Christ, where we are made righteous.

 

[Dave...]

That's because the KJV translators correctly rendered it from the Greek...
Take a look:

" δικαιοσύνη δὲ θεοῦ διὰ πίστεως ἰησοῦ χριστοῦ εἰς πάντας καὶ ἐπὶ πάντας τοὺς πιστεύοντας οὐ γάρ ἐστιν διαστολή"
"Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:"

...where " ἰησοῦ " literally means "from Jesus", as in "of" ...
Think "Saul of Tarsus", which means "Saul from Tarsus".

Some other translations in English incorrectly render it as "in Jesus" when that is not what the Greek actually says.


I think you may be missing something a little more defining in that verse, similar to what I showed in the above.
Here it is, in the Greek:

" τί γὰρ εἰ ἠπίστησάν τινες μὴ ἡ ἀπιστία αὐτῶν τὴν πίστιν τοῦ θεοῦ καταργήσει"
" For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?"

...where " θεοῦ" literally means "from God".
The NKJV leaves "of" alone in the above verse, but changes "faith" to "faithfulness"

There is a difference, my friend... and as in other threads, it's this lack of accuracy to the Greek which leads me to not recommend the NKJV ( or any other English translation that does this ) to anyone.
Also, and it may seem like I'm trying to make this more obvious, but...
"...faith from God..."?

Take a minute and let that settle in.

Hey Dave.

There's a problem interpreting Romans 3:22 in that way because the context is justification, and you're interpretation of that passage would make it a statement referring to ongoing faith. Justification, the indwelling, both result from the initial faith. The ongoing faith, the evidence, the indwelling empowers that faith. I think that we agree on that. The 'faith of Jesus' only works like that using Scripture speaking of the ongoing faith, and not the initial faith, for that reason. There is only one way that your interpretation of Romans 3:22 fits the context, but it requires understanding the term 'faith' differently. That is that the 'faith', as in the 'faith of Jesus', means the NT revelation, or the Gospel. That interpretation actually fits the context extremely well. It would read like this.

"even the righteousness of God, through the Gospel of Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;"

Read the whole context with that understanding of that particular passage, and you'll see what I mean. The cool thing about that is that either 'faith in Christ', or 'faith of Christ' works, as both are speaking of the Gospel. The first is the Gospel, the second another way of saying 'Gospel'.

Jude 3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

Galatians is another story, as it does speak of faith in the context of ongoing. I'll need to get into that tomorrow.

Dave

 

[Dave G]

There's a problem interpreting Romans 3:22 in that way because the context is justification, and you're interpretation of that passage would make it a statement referring to ongoing faith.

We'll have to agree to disagree then.

Justification, the indwelling, both result from the initial faith.

Again we'll have to disagree.
I don't see God's word telling us that our belief prompts the Lord to do anything eternally, for us as sinners...

Rather, He does things because those that have believed were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1 ).
They believed, because they were Christ's sheep ( John 10:26-27 ) and were ordained to eternal life ( Acts 13:48 ).

"Initial faith" is something that flows forth from His elect in the Lord's timing, and because of His work in us.
We as believers were created in Christ Jesus ( Ephesians 2 ), and we respond as the "sheep" we were created to be, my friend.

Faith, whether "initial" or "ongoing", is a product of God's work, not our own efforts in the flesh.

 

[Dave G]

The ongoing faith, the evidence, the indwelling empowers that faith. I think that we agree on that.

We do indeed.

The 'faith of Jesus' only works like that using Scripture speaking of the ongoing faith, and not the initial faith, for that reason. There is only one way that your interpretation of Romans 3:22 fits the context, but it requires understanding the term 'faith' differently.

I agree.

To me, "saving faith" is a misnomer...
As my faith was given ( along with many other gifts ) to me by a Saviour who loved me, and gave Himself for me.
Like Paul, the life that I now live, I live by the faith of the Son of God.
Same "faith", whether it was "initial" or "ongoing".

It is the gift of God ( Ephesians 2:8 ).

Yes, I have faith "in" the Son of God, but that is not what the passage says..
It says "of".

So, to me an integral part of the Gospel that Paul preached to the churches, and wrote about in his epistles to them, is that same faith that gives all believers in Christ nothing to stand on, except God's mercy and grace towards them.

It abases man, and exalts the Lord as high as possible for whatever good that we get from Him.

 

[Dave...]

1) I said our righteousness arises from God crediting our faith and on that basis, transferring us into Christ spiritually. That is how we become spiritually "in Christ."

2) Once in Christ, spiritually within Christ, we undergo the washing of regeneration, which justifies us and thus made righteous, and perfect, we can be sealed within Christ spiritually with the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 2:5 says we are made alive (regenerated and justified) together with Christ, thus when God transfers us spiritually into Christ.

3) The point you may be missing, as I do not believe you have acknowledged it, is God's action to credit our faith as righteous. This does not make us righteous, but does provide the basis for God transferring us into Christ, where we are made righteous.

Hey Van

I see it a bit differently. We are placed into Christ Jesus when we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13), called the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Abraham, like all OT believers, died having not received those promises (Hebrews 11:13). What promises? One was to be born again, which required the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (See Ezekiel 36:26-27, John 7:38-39, John 14:16-20, 25-26, 15:26, John 16:12-16) That promise began to be realized at Pentecost. After the transition, that is everyone who the promises were made to and owed were made whole, the transition was over. We call Pentecost the birth of the Church because those were the first to be placed into Christ, the Church. I believe that this may be why Paul wrote in Romans that we (believers of that time), were the first fruits of the Spirit (Romans 8:23).

Abraham was credited with [Jesus'] righteousness, the righteousness of God, in the same way that the believers in John 1:12-13 were given the right to become children of God, born again. Those promises, rights were realized at Pentecost, only after the Holy Spirit was given, which had to wait for Jesus to first be glorified. After Jesus was glorified, all the ingredients that save us, both positionally (legally, the Law), and practically (born again), were now reality, thus the agent of that placing into, or baptism, the Holy Spirit was given. When we are placed "In Christ" by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we are also placed into his death, and raised up with Him. This Spirit baptism, or placing into Christ, simultaneously, spiritually baptized us into His death, and then spiritually raised us up with Him, thus we are crucified with Christ (Galatians 2:20), and raised up with Him (Eph. 2:6). That's born again. Also resulting from this spiritual union from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we are imputed with the righteousness of God, the righteousness that Abraham was credited [imputed] with, but had to wait for (Romans 3:25-26). And the atonement, which can only apply after the cross. All these OT believers in Hebrews died having not received these promises. They did, however, receive them when Jesus descended for three days and preached to the spirits. After Jesus was raised from the dead, with His ascension, He took Paradise with Him to the third heaven to be in the Presence and live with the Father.

In short (too late, I know), Abraham was credited with righteousness because the righteousness that he was credited was still not yet established, that is Jesus fulfilling God's Law as fully man (on our behalf), and fully God (which made it possible). That, and the atonement, was part of what was being waited upon and is what was meant when the Bible said that Jesus needed to be glorified ("it is finished"). Which then gave all the ingredients needed to save us, so the immersion into Christ with the Holy Spirit, the placing into Christ with the Holy Spirit, the baptism with the Holy Spirit, now had the death and resurrection for us to also be placed into and born again, the death on the cross for atonement, and the righteousness of God established to impute as a result of that spiritual union. The ingredients.

Romans 4 elaborates. this really say it all quite clearly.

Romans 4:22-25, 5:1-2 And therefore "it was accounted to him [Abraham] for righteousness." Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification. Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand[/B], and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Abraham was imputed with righteousness, just as we are, but He had to wait in Hades, or Sheol, until these promises could be fulfilled.

Dave

 

[Dave...]

We'll have to agree to disagree then.

Again we'll have to disagree.
I don't see God's word telling us that our belief prompts the Lord to do anything eternally, for us as sinners...

Rather, He does things because those that have believed were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1 ).
They believed, because they were Christ's sheep ( John 10:26-27 ) and were ordained to eternal life ( Acts 13:48 ).

"Initial faith" is something that flows forth from His elect in the Lord's timing, and because of His work in us.
We as believers were created in Christ Jesus ( Ephesians 2 ), and we respond as the "sheep" we were created to be, my friend.

Faith, whether "initial" or "ongoing", is a product of God's work, not our own efforts in the flesh.

Remember, in post #28, you agreed that the life begins with the indwelling, right? Right at the bottom of the post.

 

[Dave...]

We do indeed.

I agree.

To me, "saving faith" is a misnomer...
As my faith was given ( along with many other gifts ) to me by a Saviour who loved me, and gave Himself for me.
Like Paul, the life that I now live, I live by the faith of the Son of God.
Same "faith", whether it was "initial" or "ongoing".

It is the gift of God ( Ephesians 2:8 ).

Yes, I have faith "in" the Son of God, but that is not what the passage says..
It says "of".

So, to me an integral part of the Gospel that Paul preached to the churches, and wrote about in his epistles to them, is that same faith that gives all believers in Christ nothing to stand on, except God's mercy and grace towards them.

It abases man, and exalts the Lord as high as possible for whatever good that we get from Him.

Huh?

 

[Dave...]

I have a few videos for you Greek scholars if you get bored. Tell me what you think. Source and content. One is Romans 1:17, and the other is Galatian 3:22. both about 12 minutes long.

 

[Dave G]

Remember, in post #28, you agreed that the life begins with the indwelling, right? Right at the bottom of the post.

Remember, I also hold to a person being born again apart from us doing anything to get that way.
To be more specific, I believe that a person's new birth and their subsequent indwelling ( after Pentecost ) are closely associated...

First the new birth, then the belief of God's word, then the Spirit seals us unto the day of our bodily redemption.