Is alcohol a sin?

[BrianT]

Originally posted by Missionary Wife and Mom:
I can't believe that I'm on the "Fundamental Baptist Forum" Aparently there aren't any here.

Here's some "fundamental" scriptures. They are in the Bible. All of these verses put wine in a positive light, a gift and blessing from God. Do you believe them or not?

- Isa 25:6 says the LORD himself will give a feast that includes wine.
- In Gen 14, the priest Melchizedek (a 'type' of Christ according to the NT) gave Moses bread and wine.
- Deut 14 says if the Israelites differentiate between clean and unclean animals (v2-31), tithe (v22) and live obediently (v23), they may spend their money on livestock, wine and strong drink, and eat and drink and rejoice before the LORD.
- Psalm 104:14-15 says God causes grass to grow for cattle, causes plants to grow for man, and that God gives man wine to make man's heart glad, and oil for his face, and bread to sustain him.
- Ecc 9:7 says the righteous can "Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works."
- Judges 9:13 says wine brings cheer to both man *and God*.
- Isa 55:1 compares God's mercy to free water, milk and wine.
- 1 Chr 12:40 and 2 Chr 31:5 includes wine in the list of abundance and joyful things for Israel
- Amos 9:13-15 prophesies about restoring Israel, when then can rebuild their cities and plant vineyards and drink wine.
- Deut 28 talks about God removing good things because of disobedience. The list of good things includes wine (v39)
- Song of Songs 5:1 talks of drinking wine as a celebration of love.
- Gen 27:28 speaks a blessing from God of dew from heaven, fatness from the earth, and an abundance of grain and wine.
- Deut 7:13 speaks of a blessing from God of children, grain and wine.
- Deut 11:14 speaks of a blessing from God of grain and wine and oil.
- Prov 3:9-10 says if we give to God, he will give to us, overflowing us with grain and wine.

Think of this, we use "wine" in the Lord supper and many use alcoholic juice. What does this say about the blood of Christ. To get alcoholic juice from pure new juice it has to furment and in essence rot! The blood of Christ is pure not rotten.

I agree the blood of Christ is not rotten, but the fact remains that God gave wine as a blessing and that Christ drank wine and used it at the last supper.

Also as the temple of the Holy Spirit, we should in all way strive to be holy and different.

I agree. Many in the world abuse wine. I do not. Many in the world abuse doughnuts, I do not. Many in the world abuse entertainment, I do not.

Until we seperate ourselves and give God all the "little sins" we harbor, we will be usless for Christ and a beaten Christian with out any victory.

God can only use perfect, sinless people that also meet your criteria? If God could only use pure, sinless people, God would have to do everything himself.

What bad advice new Christians and young Christians in the Lord are getting on this board.

No one is advising anyone to start drinking. People need to avoid alcohol if they personally consider it sinful, or even if they have doubts about it. However, those that have faith that it is not a problem for them, are free to partake (Rom 14:22-23). People that do partake should not partake around brothers that doubt, for it might cause them to sin by partaking while doubting (1 Cor 8:9)

 

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by Missionary Wife and Mom:
This is the very problem with Christians today, wanting to walk so close with the world. What kind of testimony are you to the lost alcoholic who sees you buying that wine cooler and then remebers you telling him about Jesus. YOur no better than him and your testimony has been marred. If we as Christians could all give us there sins of ours, boy what God could do with us.

It's not that anyone here is promoting "wanting to walk so close with the world"... the question here is whether or not we proclaim something to be sinful when the Bible does not seem to say it is. Wine was used by believers in the OT, and in the NT. Do you actually believe that they didnt have alcoholics back then but we do now? If alcohol was not a problem back then, then the Bible wouldnt have said as much as it did about the abuse of it.

Almost everyone here who believes that wine is not forbidden has also said that they either do not partake of it themselves, or if they do, it's so minimal that it's hardly worth mentioning.

And I betcha that everyone here also agrees that we should (as scripture says) forsake our freedom in order to not cause someone else to follow.

Again, I submit to you that the reason a non-believer may not take our witness seriously is because they have a preconceived notion of what a Christian is... and since they tend to be Biblically ignorant, they really have no idea of what a Christian is. This could apply to alcohol, or any number of things. Why should we try to behave a certain way because a unbeliever thinks we should.

Besides, when Paul talked about not causing someone to stumble, he referred to the "weaker brother".. in other words, a believer. He did not say anything about unbelievers in that text. Thats not to say that we shouldnt live an example before unbelievers... but if I spend all my time trying to live the way an unbeliever lives, I wont have time to actually live the way the Word of God instructs me to live.

 

[KrispyKritter]

In my previous post I said:

"And I betcha that everyone here also agrees that we should (as scripture says) forsake our freedom in order to not cause someone else to follow."

I didnt mean follow, I meant stumble.

I also said:

"...but if I spend all my time trying to live the way an unbeliever lives,"

What I meant to say was ""...but if I spend all my time trying to live the way an unbeliever thinks I should live,"

Sorry folks... not enough coffee yet!

 

[David Mark]

Originally posted by KrispyKritter:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Why not share a tract, we are commanded to go out and spread the Gospel?

Tracts arent nearly as effective as people think they are. Why not try talking to people, getting to know them... and letting them see and hear you live out your walk with God? [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Hi Krispy!

I agree. I don't hand out tracts, but I don't discourage anyone who does nor will I allow myself to think of their efforts as un-useful to the Kingdom. I was (intensely and deeply) encouraged to hand out some tracts weeks ago. I took the tracts (resistance was futile) , but mentioned that it was not my style. It was just honesty on my part. I was not going to lie and say yes I would hand them out. I would not mind handing out some less horrifying tracts though.

Dave

 

[Missionary Wife and Mom]

Dear Friends,

I know that many Christians have a problem with the subject of wine. It has been something that Christians have battled with for many years. When I was a young Christian I also had this problem. I always felt guilty when I would drink. I began to justify this. I told myself that it was ok to drink in moderation. This is what my flesh wanted me to do. However, I still felt guilty. THe Holy Spirit of God was telling me that this was wrong. I began to study the Word of God. I am now convinced that God is against alcohol. I am not writtting this to condemn you. But I think if you want to know what the Bible says about this subject you will read the sermon below, and allow God to speak to you.


Your Friend,

Johnny

Text: Genesis 9:20-29
Theme: What the Bible says about wine!

Introduction:
1. Wine and alcohol has destroyed the lives of many.
2. It has destroyed the lives of those who drink it, and it has also destroyed the lives around those that drink it.
3. In the text we just read we find the first time that wine is mentioned in the Bible.
4. We must realize that it’s first mention is negative.
5. It was destructive to Noah’s family.
6. It divided his home, and it hurt his children.
7. The word wine is mentioned 240 times in the Bible.
8. In the English bible we use the word wine in all 240 places.
9. Now in Hebrew and Greek there are several word’s used in these 240 places, and they all do not mean fermented wine.
10. In many places it means grape juice.
11. In other places it means fermented wine.
12. In other places it can be either one.
13. What we must do is allow the Bible to interpret itself.
14. I think there is enough scipture to convince anyone that God is against the drinking of fermented wine or strong drink.
15. Before we begin the lesson I want to give you a principle in the Bible.
16. Just because we see people in the Bible drinking wine does not mean that it is right.
17. For instance we see in the Bible were David had more than one wife as well as many more OT saints.
18. God clearly says in the Wo

[ July 17, 2003, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: Missionary Wife and Mom ]

 

[KrispyKritter]

Missionary wife... I think your post got cut off or something...

 

[Missionary Wife and Mom]

18. God clearly says in the Word of God that were to have one wife.
19. Just because Abraham had more doesn’t make it right.
20. When we see people in the OT or NT drinking wine this doesn’t mean that it is right.
21. What we must do is see what God said about it.
22. For our message tonight I want to look at what the Bible says about alcohol.

I. The Bible says to the priest that they were not to drink it in the tabernacle! Lev 10:9
A. The tabernacle was built while the children of Israel wandered in the wilderness.
1. God told the priest that they were not to drink it in the tabernacle.
2. * The tabernacle later became the temple.
3. Revelation 1:6; 5:10; 20:6 The Bible says that we have become priest and kings unto Jesus Christ.
4. I Corinthians 3:16,17; 6:19 The Bible says that we are the temple of the Holy Spirit.
5. God now dwells in us, and we are not to defile are temple.
6. In Lev 10:9 God said to the priest that they were not to drink wine or strong drink in the temple.
7. That is us!
B. We are not to drink wine or strong drink today for the reason I just gave you, but we are not through yet we have just begun.

II. The Bible says that it wasn’t on the menu when God fed Israel in the wilderness! Duet 29:6
A. The reason God did not give it to them is because it takes away the heart from Him. Hosea 4:11
B. Alcohol will take us away from God, not bring us closer.

III. The Bible says that wine is linked to violence! Proverbs 4:17
A. How many wives have been beat, how many children have been hurt because of wine.
1. Alcohol has destroyed more lives than anything else.
2. It is linked to violence.
B. You and I should want nothing to do with something that has hurt so many people.

IV. The Bible says that it can produce adultery! Proverbs 9:1-6
A. Wine will destroy homes.
1. A Man that is faithful to his wife may not be when he has drunken wine.
2. In this proverb the woman wanted the man to drink so he would come into her house.
B. Wine is destructive.
1. It destroys.
2. It hurts.
3. We should leave it alone.

V. The Bible says not to look at wine when it is fermented! Proverbs 23:29-33
A. This doesn’t mean to close your eyes when you drink it.
1. God said it is so bad and wicked, it can destroy so much that we should not even look at it.
2. When Joseph was confronted with sin, he ran from it.
3. We need to run from Alcohol.
B. Billy Sunday would not go close to a bar.

VI. The Bible says woe unto them that are mighty and drink wine. Isaiah 5:22

VII. The Bible says that wine causes error! Isaiah 28:7
A. Wine effects our judgement.
B. In the state of Texas if you drink one glass of wine you can be considered legally drunk.

VIII. The Bible says that wine causes people to do wicked things. Joel 3:3

IX. The Bible says that we should not do anything that would offend a weaker Brother. Romans 14:21
A. If someone gets saved that had a problem with wine, and he comes to your house and you have wine, then you could cause him to fall into sin.
B. We must think of the spiritual growth of others.

X. The Bible says that we should not be drunk with wine, but filled with the spirit of God. Ephes 5:18
A. Leave the alcohol alone, and fill up on the Spirit of God.
B. We should be consumed with the Spirit of God.
C. When a Christian is filled with the Spirit of God, then they don’t need wine.

Conclusion:
1. The Bible says a lot about wine.
2. I believe it is clear what God thinks about wine and strong drink.
3. I believe that any Spirit filled Christian will think the same way.
4. The world may think that we are crazy, but God will think that you are taking one more step closer to Him.
5. I hope today that if you have or had a problem with this that it will be cleared up in your mind.

 

[KrispyKritter]

I think the arguement that since the Levitical preists could not drink wine in the temple, then since we are the temple now we should not, is extremely weak. There were alot of things the Levitical priests would not do in the temple. The priests certainly did not have "marital relations" in the temple... what about us now? See, this is a straw that the author was grasping for. Paul taught an incredible amount about the difference between the OT temple, and the NT temple (believers) ... and then encouraged Timothy to take a little wine for whatever stomache issues he was having. That would be a huge contradiction.

Also... your entire article is all about the abuse of wine... which you wont get any argument from me about any of that. Guns get abused too... do you promote the banning of personal gun ownership in the US? What about cars? Computers are abused too... I see you're on the internet... I'm sure you dont abuse it, but many many do.

 

[Jesus Fish]

(Missionary Wife)
4. We must realize that it’s first mention is negative.

(Fish)
Notice also that God no where condemns alcohol in this passage. If God does condemn alcohol, when did He start doing it? It obviously wasn't here.

(Missionary Wife)
8. In the English bible we use the word wine in all 240 places.

(Fish)
Which is bad translating in my opinion. That's where most of the confusion comes from. If we had as many words for wine as the Hebrew language does, we'd be in a little better shape to understand it. That doesn't mean we can't understand it at all, we just have to dig a little deeper.

(Missionary Wife)
12. In other places it can be either one.

(Fish)
Please cite.

(Missionary Wife)
14. I think there is enough scipture to convince anyone that God is against the drinking of fermented wine or strong drink.

(Fish)
Not enough for me

Deu 14:22 You shall truly tithe all the increase of your seed that the field brings forth year by year.
Deu 14:23 And you shall eat before Jehovah your God in the place which He shall choose to place His name there, the tithe of your grain, of your wine, and of your oil, and the first-born of your herds and of your flocks, so that you may learn to fear Jehovah your God always.
Deu 14:24 And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry it, or if the place is too far from you, which Jehovah your God shall choose to set His name there, when Jehovah your God has blessed you,
Deu 14:25 then you shall turn it into silver and bind up the silver in your hand, and shall go to the place which Jehovah your God shall choose.
Deu 14:26 And you shall pay that silver for whatever your soul desires, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatever your soul desires. And you shall eat there before Jehovah your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household

Strong drink was not condemned either.

 

[Baptist Believer]

20. When we see people in the OT or NT drinking wine this doesn’t mean that it is right.

Very true. The Bible has quite a bit to say about the abuse of alcohol. The Bible also presents alcohol as something that is a gift of God. The Bible encourages us to use this good gift properly.

21. What we must do is see what God said about it.

The fullness of the Godhead was in Christ in bodily form (Colossians 2:9), and Christ drank alcoholic beverages responsibly. Those of us who are His disciples should not be condemned if we choose to also drink alcohol responsibly.

B. In the state of Texas if you drink one glass of wine you can be considered legally drunk.

It is very unlikely that a person of legal drinking age would be considered legally drunk after drinking only one glass (6-8 oz.) of traditional wine.

I would be very interested to see some sort of legal citation to substantiate this claim.

 

[KrispyKritter]

B. In the state of Texas if you drink one glass of wine you can be considered legally drunk.[/QB]

In the United States abortion is legal (including TX) ... does that make it correct? So now we rely on the government to decide what is right or wrong? You may... I think the Word of God is a better source tho.

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by Missionary Wife and Mom:
I always felt guilty when I would drink. I began to justify this. I told myself that it was ok to drink in moderation. This is what my flesh wanted me to do. However, I still felt guilty. THe Holy Spirit of God was telling me that this was wrong.

Then for you it was wrong. If you drink while you doubt, it is sin. (Rom 14:22-23) You personal feelings do not make something universally sinful.

I began to study the Word of God. I am now convinced that God is against alcohol.

God gave wine as a blessing in the verses I posted for you. Is God contradicting himself? Does God give evil gifts? Or maybe you're letting your bias cloud your study?

1. Wine and alcohol has destroyed the lives of many.

Unless someone literally drowns in wine, alcohol does not destroy the lives of anyone. Alcohol ABUSE does.

4. We must realize that it’s first mention is negative.

Because it was abused. Not because it was inherently evil.

16. Just because we see people in the Bible drinking wine does not mean that it is right.

Just because we see people in the Bible ABUSING wine does not mean that wine in moderation is wrong.

17. For instance we see in the Bible were David had more than one wife as well as many more OT saints.

Since David abused marriage, marriage is therefore wrong?

I. The Bible says to the priest that they were not to drink it in the tabernacle! Lev 10:9

They probably weren't supposed to have sex in the tabernacle either. That doesn't mean sex is wrong.

5. God now dwells in us, and we are not to defile are temple.

So God gives a blessing, a gift, and we're supposed to say "Icky, God! I don't want your evil gift - it will defile me!"

II. The Bible says that it wasn’t on the menu when God fed Israel in the wilderness! Duet 29:6

Have you even looked at that verse? It also says bread wasn't on the menu either. If this verse means wine is wrong, it must also mean bread is wrong.

III. The Bible says that wine is linked to violence! Proverbs 4:17

Yes, through abuse. Sex is also linked to violence, through abuse. Money is linked to violence, through abuse.

A. How many wives have been beat, how many children have been hurt because of wine.

How many women have been physically and emotionally beaten and killed, how many children have been hurt because of sex? How about because of money?

 

[BrianT]

1. Alcohol has destroyed more lives than anything else.
2. It is linked to violence.
B. You and I should want nothing to do with something that has hurt so many people.

Sex, sex, sex, money, money, money....

IV. The Bible says that it can produce adultery! Proverbs 9:1-6
A. Wine will destroy homes.
1. A Man that is faithful to his wife may not be when he has drunken wine.
2. In this proverb the woman wanted the man to drink so he would come into her house.

All due to abuse...

B. Wine is destructive.
1. It destroys.
2. It hurts.

Abuse...

3. We should leave it alone.

Should we leave sex alone? How about you send me all your money?

V. The Bible says not to look at wine when it is fermented! Proverbs 23:29-33
A. This doesn’t mean to close your eyes when you drink it.

You're right, it doesn't mean that. It means not to be so desirous of it that you're basically lusting after it, always looking for the next drink. Abuse.

2. When Joseph was confronted with sin, he ran from it.
3. We need to run from Alcohol.

Joseph was confronted with sex. We need to run from sex?

B. Billy Sunday would not go close to a bar.

Jesus did. Mother Teresa did too. Neither had sex.

VI. The Bible says woe unto them that are mighty and drink wine. Isaiah 5:22

Not "mighty AND drink wine", but "mighty TO drink wine". Abuse.

VII. The Bible says that wine causes error! Isaiah 28:7

Through abuse. Read the whole verse ("...swallowed up in wine...") and the next verse.

A. Wine effects our judgement.

Sleepiness affects our judgement.

B. In the state of Texas if you drink one glass of wine you can be considered legally drunk.

They are trying to curb ABUSE.

VIII. The Bible says that wine causes people to do wicked things. Joel 3:3

Sex is mentioned in the same verse.

IX. The Bible says that we should not do anything that would offend a weaker Brother. Romans 14:21
A. If someone gets saved that had a problem with wine, and he comes to your house and you have wine, then you could cause him to fall into sin.

I agree. Although such a scenario doesn't cause him to fall into sin, but the risk is there. So yes, it is wrong to drink if a weaker brother might stumble. Notice that it talks about the *weaker* brother. This implies that the one who doesn't have an issue with wine is the stronger brother (the very next verse, v22).

B. We must think of the spiritual growth of others.

Agreed.

X. The Bible says that we should not be drunk with wine, but filled with the spirit of God. Ephes 5:18

Amen. Don't get drunk with (abuse) wine.

A. Leave the alcohol alone, and fill up on the Spirit of God.

No, that's not what the verse says, you're changing its meaning. It says don't get drunk with wine.

B. We should be consumed with the Spirit of God.
C. When a Christian is filled with the Spirit of God, then they don’t need wine.

Which is exactly why nuns don't have sex, and very little money.

Conclusion:
1. The Bible says a lot about wine.

It sure does. Why did you only focus on half of it?

2. I believe it is clear what God thinks about wine and strong drink.

So do I. See (and respond to!) the verses below.

3. I believe that any Spirit filled Christian will think the same way.

I believe that's the most self-righteous statement I've read in a while.

Missionary Wife, I've responded to the verses you posted. Are you ever going to respond to the ones I post, or are you just going to keep pretending they don't exist? Do you believe your Bible, or only half of it?

- Isa 25:6 says the LORD himself will give a feast that includes wine.
- In Gen 14, the priest Melchizedek (a 'type' of Christ according to the NT) gave Moses bread and wine.
- Deut 14 says if the Israelites differentiate between clean and unclean animals (v2-31), tithe (v22) and live obediently (v23), they may spend their money on livestock, wine and strong drink, and eat and drink and rejoice before the LORD.
- Psalm 104:14-15 says God causes grass to grow for cattle, causes plants to grow for man, and that God gives man wine to make man's heart glad, and oil for his face, and bread to sustain him.
- Ecc 9:7 says the righteous can "Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works."
- Judges 9:13 says wine brings cheer to both man *and God*.
- Isa 55:1 compares God's mercy to free water, milk and wine.
- 1 Chr 12:40 and 2 Chr 31:5 includes wine in the list of abundance and joyful things for Israel
- Amos 9:13-15 prophesies about restoring Israel, when then can rebuild their cities and plant vineyards and drink wine.
- Deut 28 talks about God removing good things because of disobedience. The list of good things includes wine (v39)
- Song of Songs 5:1 talks of drinking wine as a celebration of love.
- Gen 27:28 speaks a blessing from God of dew from heaven, fatness from the earth, and an abundance of grain and wine.
- Deut 7:13 speaks of a blessing from God of children, grain and wine.
- Deut 11:14 speaks of a blessing from God of grain and wine and oil.
- Prov 3:9-10 says if we give to God, he will give to us, overflowing us with grain and wine.

Brian

 

[KrispyKritter]

Originally posted by BrianT:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />B. Billy Sunday would not go close to a bar.

Jesus did. Mother Teresa did too. Neither had sex.

</font>[/QUOTE]I commend you on that one... that was clever!

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Originally posted by HomeBound:
&gt;&gt;I see that you have your interpretation and I have mine of
&gt;&gt;the way "wine" is used in the Bible. One of us is correct and the
&gt;&gt;other is wrong.

Isn't it amazing that you have not provided any proof for your contention? I have several different translations of God's Word. Going all the way back to Wiclif, all the great English translations of the Bible use the word "wine." Note that they ALL used the word "wine." Yet somehow you can state unequivocally that "wine" was misinterpreted in both the Greek and the Hebrew texts.

&gt;&gt;I believe that the Bible teaches that "wine" has
&gt;&gt;different meanings and using the context shows this.

You were not even close.
You succeeded in showing that getting drunk is a sin, and I cannot recall anybody disagreeing with this. You never showed that drinking in moderation is a sin.

&gt;&gt;I believe that the character of Jesus would not allow such
&gt;&gt;a thing.

Once again, you never offered any proof for your contention. Moreover, you never proved that the first miracle was "grapejuice" [sic] as you have claimed several times.
Here's another one: what do the Jewish people use when they are celebrating Passover? That is what Jesus was celebrating when He was at the Last Supper. Was He using "grapejuice" [sic] here as well?

The Books of Moses are very specific concerning dietary laws. I contend that if God commands us to abstain from alcohol, it would be specified very clearly.
You have shown several times that getting drunk is a sin, and I have yet to see anyone disagree with that. Nobody has proven this to be true, not even the link you gave for the church who falsely claims to use the 1611 Authorised Version.

&gt;&gt;I believe the Bible tells us to abstain from the appearance of evil
&gt;&gt;and I believe that all/any alcholic [sic] drink is evil.

If that is your personal conviction, then that is fine. The problem is when personal conviction is held out as Biblical Doctrine. That, by definition, is legalism.

And just think: I don't even drink anymore......

 

[Jesus Fish]

For the moderationists, how would you argue against the argument that says since we are priests and kings (Rev. 1:6; 5:10) and the OT says priests and kings were not to drink (Ez. 44:21; Prov. 31:4, 5), we are not to drink wine either? It seems like a stretch to me. I'm not sure if that is a good way to apply to O.T. to the church.

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by Jesus Fish:
For the moderationists, how would you argue against the argument that says since we are priests and kings (Rev. 1:6; 5:10) and the OT says priests and kings were not to drink (Ez. 44:21; Prov. 31:4, 5), we are not to drink wine either? It seems like a stretch to me. I'm not sure if that is a good way to apply to O.T. to the church.

For Ezek 44:21, read it in context (i.e. read from about verse 15 to verse 31). The passage is about Levite priests, and their many rules, *while in the inner court of the sanctuary*. The passage says that *in the inner court*, they could not wear anything made of wool (v17), they had to wear a "bonnet" and "breeches" and nothing that cause them to sweat (v18), and not drink wine (v21). In general (not just in the inner court) they could neither be bald nor have long hair (v20), they could not take a widow for a wife (unless the widow was previously married to a priest) (v22), they could go near no dead person except immediate family (v25), etc. If verse 21 means we as NT "priests" must not drink wine in general, then the passage ALSO we as NT "priests" must not wear wool, wear sweat pants, work in a funeral home, etc. Unless one is willing to apply ALL these things to the NT beliver (which I don't think anyone thinks should be done), using only one verse out of the passage is to be hugely inconsistent. The actions in the list were *symbols* of purity, not purity in and of themselves and doctrinally binding for all saints to come.

About Prov 31:4-5, I think verse 5 is crucial, for it gives the reason: so they don't "forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted". How could wine make someone "forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted"? Only through abuse. It was common for kings to have large feasts, lasting days at a time, where everyone frenzied in gluttony and drunnkeness (and other abuses) - such activity basically put the king "out of commission" for as long as the party lasted, the king being drunk and unable to make sound judgments. The passage speaks of abuse, not of an occasional glass of wine with dinner.

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Originally posted by Jesus Fish:
For the moderationists, how would you argue against the argument that says since we are priests and kings (Rev. 1:6; 5:10) and the OT says priests and kings were not to drink (Ez. 44:21; Prov. 31:4, 5), we are not to drink wine either? It seems like a stretch to me. I'm not sure if that is a good way to apply to O.T. to the church.

I am not sure that I follow your thought process here. Could you please amplify this for me?

 

[Johnv]

Yes, through abuse. Sex is also linked to violence, through abuse. Money is linked to violence, through abuse.

Alas, the Bible. too, has been linked to violence, through abuse. I agree with your posts.

 

[Michael]

Hey everybody,

This is just probably one of those topics that requires a lot of prayer and scripture studying. I think we should be careful to say what is and is not sin. As christians, God will convict our hearts as to what is sin...

Michael