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Is God Sovereign?

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Martin Marprelate

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MB said:
Where does scripture say that? You can't possibly mean that this scripture is wrong. JN. 12:32
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Where does Scripture say that not all men are drawn to Christ? Well you could try John 1:11 or John 3:19 to name but two.
It isn't myself who has the problem with definitions of words.
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I think you'll find it is.
Is a moth dragged to a flame?. No!. The moth comes to it on his won free will because of his fascination or attraction to the flame. No force is applied yet he is still drawn. You see it as a dragging, I see it as an attraction.
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I wonder if you can show me where I used the word 'drag'? There is no violence in God's drawing. 'I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you' (Jeremiah 31:3). God does not draw people against their wills; He gives them a new heart and a new spirit (Ezekiel 36:26) so that they freely come to Him. 'Thy people shall be willing in the day of Thy power' (Psalm 110:3).
Just because all moths do not come to the flame doesn't not mean they were not drawn.
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So you believe that every single person is drawn to Christ. May I suggest that you do some door to door evangelism and let me know how it goes?
If you would drop your preconceived notions and study it closely you might understand what Scripture is saying. Not to mention you first need to prove that "all men" does not mean "all men" are inclusive .
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I'm not quite sure how to parse this sentence, but if you want examples of where 'all men' does not mean 'every single person' may I refer you to thatbrian's post #12? He gives 17 examples of just that.

Now then: how shall we reconcile John 6:44 with John 12:32? It's very simple. The Jews believed that only Jews could be saved. The context of John 12:32 is the Greeks coming to Philip (the apostle with the Greek name) and asking to see the Lord Jesus. His answer is that after His crucifixion He will draw 'all men'-- Gentiles as well as Jews-- to Himself. He does not mean every single person, but all kinds of people. 'There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.'
Obvious to me is the fact that Calvinist suffer from their own preconceived notions of what scripture actually says. Calvinism is not a doctrine but a philosophy of how to make scripture say what they want it to say in order to match their doctrines. They ignore identifying phrases in a verse and always challenge the meaning of words like "all" and "world" because they obviously do not match what they want to believe. It's pitiful to take God's Word apart the way that they do.
MB
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And I love you too. :)
 
R

Revmitchell

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TCassidy said:
I can always tell when you are losing and you know it. You resort to desperation by saying things such as the above. Of course, the bible considers age a sign of honor. I wonder why you don't?
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Well I mean you PM me a nasty PM talking about staying away from my posts, then you completely do the opposite. Seems a bit schizophrenic.
 
HankD

HankD

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HankD said:
How do you know that?

See, I haven't been around for eternity, so I can't say for sure.

I'll try to find a verse...

Race ya!

HankD
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Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

That'll work (for me anyway).

HankD
 
M

MB

Well-Known Member
Martin Marprelate said:
Where does Scripture say that not all men are drawn to Christ? Well you could try John 1:11 or John 3:19 to name but two.
I think you'll find it is.
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Nope didn't find anything in those verses that relate to being Drawn. In Jn 3:19 the Jews had already been Drawn and yet they rejected christ. proving that Man can and does resist God's Grace.

Martin Marprelate said:
I wonder if you can show me where I used the word 'drag'? There is no violence in God's drawing. 'I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you' (Jeremiah 31:3). God does not draw people against their wills; He gives them a new heart and a new spirit (Ezekiel 36:26) so that they freely come to Him. 'Thy people shall be willing in the day of Thy power' (Psalm 110:3).
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No where in scripture does it ever say God doesn't draw all men. Not to mention you cannot claim for your self the promises given to the Jews.

Martin Marprelate said:
So you believe that every single person is drawn to Christ. May I suggest that you do some door to door evangelism and let me know how it goes?
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How can you quote passages given to the Jews and apply them to your self? Their drawing was corporate not individual. Not everything in scripture applies to Gentiles. Your not Jewish are you?
Not to mention that we are talking about the drawing of Christ who hadn't appeared in scripture at the time.

Martin Marprelate said:
I'm not quite sure how to parse this sentence, but if you want examples of where 'all men' does not mean 'every single person' may I refer you to thatbrian's post #12? He gives 17 examples of just that.
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I have replied to that brian's post. You should read it.

Martin Marprelate said:
Now then: how shall we reconcile John 6:44 with John 12:32? It's very simple. The Jews believed that only Jews could be saved. The context of John 12:32 is the Greeks coming to Philip (the apostle with the Greek name) and asking to see the Lord Jesus. His answer is that after His crucifixion He will draw 'all men'-- Gentiles as well as Jews-- to Himself. He does not mean every single person, but all kinds of people. 'There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.'
And I love you too.
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How is it you know Christ didn't mean everyone when He said all? There is a difference between scripture and Calvinism. They clash!
No where in scripture can you ever show that all men are not drawn. If you could have you would have.
MB
 
utilyan

utilyan

Well-Known Member
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Does God want you to sin right now?

So everyone on this thread must be sinless!

Unless, you think God is NOT Sovereign!
 
SheepWhisperer

SheepWhisperer

Active Member
At the Judgment God is going to put every individual, small and great, in Hell who went against His will in refusing to believe on His Son. God is not "sovereign" : He is almighty.
 
T

tyndale1946

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Reformed said:
He's both.
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Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

46:11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

46:12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness:

46:13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

No need to give you my opinion scripture says it all... Brother Glen:)
 
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