savedbymercy
New Member
What a dumb question, just read what I have posted.
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Is God the Cause of sin and evil in the world ?
- Thread starter savedbymercy
- Start date
What a dumb question, just read what I have posted.
based upon your ramblings then...
You do hold to God being the One to cause the fall?
It wasn't a dumb question. Your presuppositions have blinded you to the truth. God did not cause Adam to sin. Adam was not a robot forced to sin by God. He had a free will which God gave him. He chose to rebel against God. When he did, the whole creation was plunged into sin via the curse. We are all under the curse, as you very well know.
Thus it is not God who subjected the whole creation to vanity, it is Adam, though indirectly. It is the result of the fall; the result of the curse brought about by Adam's sin. God is not responsible for Adam's sin.
I cannot worship a God who is responsible for the wickedness and sin in this world. I cannot worship an evil God. I cannot worship a God who delights in evil. But that is your God. I pity you. You live in darkness not light. You can't even give a clear cut testimony of your own salvation.
God is not the author of sin but he is the author of responsible free choice in Adam which by NECESSITY permits alternative choice.
Sin is never the DELIGHT of God as it is impossible for God to delight in sin as he cannot even look upon it with pleasure.
You fail to understand distinctions in regard to the use of the "will" of God. The Bible is the "revealed" will of God which is transgressed daily. In regard to the determinate will of God sin falls under the distinction of RESTRAINT and PERMISSIVE will of God whereby things contrary to God's revealed "will" are allowed to accomplish ultimate good for His people (Rom. 8:28) and the glory of God (Psa. 76:10).
Hence, there is the determinate will of Delight in regard to righteousness and there is the will of permission in regard to sin and its consequences. Both are God's will of good pleasure in the sense they accomplish God's ultimate goals.
Psa. 76:10 Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain.
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think we are in agreement on this, as i would instead see it fallig under God have a dterminitive Will, events and acts that he directly caused/determined to happen, while he also has a permissive Will that allows for decesions/choices, but always BOTH under His sovereignty, and working together to fulfill his p[redestined plans and purposes!
he is NOT reacting towards our decisions/choices, but has built those into what His predestined plans and purposes already are...
I agree with your assessment. Look back at this post of SBM's
His beliefs here are clearly stated.
1. God caused sin and death.
2. God wished that Adam would sin.
IOW, it is God's desire that his creation sins, even though the Bible says the exact opposite (1John 2:1,2)
He holds to an extreme view of calvinism. He fails to distinguish between the various aspects of God's Will. He fails to distinguish between God's eternal Purpose and the Execution of that purpose in space and time (Isa. 46:11). He fails to distinguish between the work of Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit in regard to justification. He fails to distinguish between finishing the LEGAL BASIS for justification by Christ on the cross versus the LEGAL APPLICATION of Justification by The Spirit of God in and through the believer.
All these areas of confusion between things that differ are the roots of his false doctrines.
savedbymercy
New Member
dhk
He sure did, and I explained why !
He sure did, and I explained why !
savedbymercy
New Member
dhk
False teaching, Adam was the whole of creation, it was him that was subjected to vanity, and the ground was cursed for his sake Gen 3:17
And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
All this was according to God's Eternal Remptive Purpose, the creation was subjected to vanity in Hope, This Hope Rom 8:19-20
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
You know very little about God and His Eternal Purpose in Christ Eph 3:11
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
This purpose takes precedence over Adam ! Christ was not a back up plan to Adam, is that what you believe ?
False teaching, Adam was the whole of creation, it was him that was subjected to vanity, and the ground was cursed for his sake Gen 3:17
And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
All this was according to God's Eternal Remptive Purpose, the creation was subjected to vanity in Hope, This Hope Rom 8:19-20
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
You know very little about God and His Eternal Purpose in Christ Eph 3:11
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
This purpose takes precedence over Adam ! Christ was not a back up plan to Adam, is that what you believe ?
The teaching in Romans 8 goes back to the curse in Genesis 3.
Yes Adam was subjected, but by his own choice.
And what is that hope? It is the hope that "we wait for the redemption of our bodies," still related to the release from the curse which will be at the appearing of Christ. Your exegesis of Scripture is found wanting.
Furthermore you are not God; so why are you pretending?
Who confided in you what God's Eternal Redemptive Purposes (decrees) are?
Did you receive special revelation from God, or are you simply a Gnostic?
Who are you that has knowledge more than the rest of us?
You are claiming extra-Biblical knowledge. In most cases that comes from Satan. Care to explain??
I will admit I don't know what is not in the Bible. I am not smarter than God, and don't claim to be. But you seem to have that attitude.
Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
You know little about what Paul is saying in this verse. Read up a few verses. He is talking about how the Gentiles were also made fellow heirs of salvation with the Jewish believers. Both Jewish and Gentile believers have boldness and access by faith in Christ. This was according to God's eternal purpose or design. It was not decreed this way. That is something you are just making up, being ignorant of the teaching of Scripture.
The purpose is given in the chapter--a chapter which speaks of Gentile believers having fellowship with Jewish believers in the "house of God," we all being members of one church. There is unity in the church.
Do you like to trash the Scriptures by always taking it out of context?
savedbymercy
New Member
dhk
Duh, I just said that.
Duh, I just said that.
savedbymercy
New Member
This world was created for a redemptive purpose, for Christ's death for sin was determined and ordained before the world began, in accordance with this redeeming purpose Acts 2:23
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
1 Pet 1:20
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Now it is plainly taught that Christ's redeeming death was foreknown and foreordained BEFORE the foundation of the World, before Adam was a speck of dust, for the redemptive purpose by blood spoken of in 1 Pet 1:18-19
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
So when God created Adam, it was in alignment , arrangement within the redemptive purpose in Christ Eph 3:11
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Col 1:16
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
It cannot be made more plainer that all things, to include man in adam, were Created for Christ's redemptive purpose, and not that Christ's redemptive purpose was a backup plan to God foreseeing adam would sin. Thats blasphemy and elevating adam's importance above that of Christ's and giving adam the preeminence in Creation, and Christ a secondary backup plan !
However, Adam was made for Christ's redemptive Purpose so he must sin and by that ,plunge the world into sin and death, for adam by sinning only did what God purposed him to do, just like He purposed the people to do what they did when they betrayed Christ to death Acts 4:27-28
27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
This principle applies to Adam and his sin also, he, eve, the serpent were gathered together that day in the garden Gen 3 to do whatsover thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done, and this determination is what caused adam to sin willfully. I challenge anyone to prove by scripture what I have said here not to be correct !
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
1 Pet 1:20
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Now it is plainly taught that Christ's redeeming death was foreknown and foreordained BEFORE the foundation of the World, before Adam was a speck of dust, for the redemptive purpose by blood spoken of in 1 Pet 1:18-19
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
So when God created Adam, it was in alignment , arrangement within the redemptive purpose in Christ Eph 3:11
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Col 1:16
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
It cannot be made more plainer that all things, to include man in adam, were Created for Christ's redemptive purpose, and not that Christ's redemptive purpose was a backup plan to God foreseeing adam would sin. Thats blasphemy and elevating adam's importance above that of Christ's and giving adam the preeminence in Creation, and Christ a secondary backup plan !
However, Adam was made for Christ's redemptive Purpose so he must sin and by that ,plunge the world into sin and death, for adam by sinning only did what God purposed him to do, just like He purposed the people to do what they did when they betrayed Christ to death Acts 4:27-28
27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
This principle applies to Adam and his sin also, he, eve, the serpent were gathered together that day in the garden Gen 3 to do whatsover thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done, and this determination is what caused adam to sin willfully. I challenge anyone to prove by scripture what I have said here not to be correct !
savedbymercy
New Member
Mercy from Everlasting unto Everlasting !
That God created this world for a Redemptive Purpose centered in Christ Jesus, and that this Eternal Redemptive Purpose introduced sin and evil into God's World , this is true because before the World began or ever before it was made, God had purposed mercy for the miserable and fallen sons of God, hence David comprehended this Purpose of Mercy as expressed here Ps 103:17
17 But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;
So what does it mean that the Lords mercy is from Everlasting ? How often do we read this term in scripture " from everlasting " ?
Here is a verse that relates to the question Prov 8:23
I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Mich 5:2
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
The reason why this Mercy is said to be from everlasting, because it was from Everlasting in the Eternal Counsels of the Everlasting Covenant, that God purposed the vessels of Mercy Rom 9:23
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
This is all according to the riches of His Glory, it is also because it was then the Everlasting Covenant was formed, Had the Elect never sinned, this Eternal Purpose of Mercy would not have had occasion to be manifested to the Sons of men Prov 8:31
31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
And all this was according to the riches of His Grace and Glory in Christ Jesus !
That God created this world for a Redemptive Purpose centered in Christ Jesus, and that this Eternal Redemptive Purpose introduced sin and evil into God's World , this is true because before the World began or ever before it was made, God had purposed mercy for the miserable and fallen sons of God, hence David comprehended this Purpose of Mercy as expressed here Ps 103:17
17 But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;
So what does it mean that the Lords mercy is from Everlasting ? How often do we read this term in scripture " from everlasting " ?
Here is a verse that relates to the question Prov 8:23
I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Mich 5:2
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
The reason why this Mercy is said to be from everlasting, because it was from Everlasting in the Eternal Counsels of the Everlasting Covenant, that God purposed the vessels of Mercy Rom 9:23
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
This is all according to the riches of His Glory, it is also because it was then the Everlasting Covenant was formed, Had the Elect never sinned, this Eternal Purpose of Mercy would not have had occasion to be manifested to the Sons of men Prov 8:31
31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
And all this was according to the riches of His Grace and Glory in Christ Jesus !
I challenge you to prove beyond doubt that the statement above was pre-determined, formed in the decrees of God before the world began, and that you had no choice but to post it just now. You are nothing but a robot in the hand of God with no choice. You had to type that post--no will.
savedbymercy
New Member
Jesus asked who could find sin in him and you answer that you can and just who are you? If sin originates with God's motives then it is IN him from eternity and therefore he is not without "shadow of turning" and he is not pure "light" but evil is present IN him and part and parcel with his nature.
You are the atheist best friend. No wonder you are not able to even given a salvation witness because you obviously do not know the God of the Bible.
The truth is that God purposed to create responsible free agents and that is impossible apart from giving permission for alternative choice which is the real author of sin. Of Satan the scriptures say that sin was "FOUND" in him rather than God MADE him sin!
Sin in Adam was by intentional choice originating from "good" perverted by desire. He chose to die with Eve rather than to live without her. His love for Eve was "good." However, his choice to love Eve more than God was an evil desire that produced the fruit of disobedience.
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No, rather it means that if you cannot meet my challenge you must concede that you and others do have free will, and thus your entire premise is false.
Michael Wrenn
New Member
That's about as good of an explanation as I've ever read.
savedbymercy
New Member
Christ's Redemptive Purpose was not a backup plan !
To Preach the unsearchable riches of Christ !
Eph 3:8
8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
That sin was purposed in the World by God is understood by the fact that God had designed before the world began or before it was an speck of dust, that the Apostle Paul would preach among the gentiles, the unsearchable riches of Christ [See 1 Cor 2:7] Eph 3:8,11
8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord,
So adam's transgression was by the skillful design of God in Christ, for in all things He [Christ] must be given the preeminence; Now for those of us who teach and believe that the Eternal Purpose of Christ is a backup plan because things went awry with adam and he brought sin into the world, then we have it backwards, and we are giving adam's creation purpose preeminence over Christ, and God's Eternal Purpose in Him and over the unsearchable Riches of Him and His Grace that God Eternally Purposed !
To Preach the unsearchable riches of Christ !
Eph 3:8
8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
That sin was purposed in the World by God is understood by the fact that God had designed before the world began or before it was an speck of dust, that the Apostle Paul would preach among the gentiles, the unsearchable riches of Christ [See 1 Cor 2:7] Eph 3:8,11
8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord,
So adam's transgression was by the skillful design of God in Christ, for in all things He [Christ] must be given the preeminence; Now for those of us who teach and believe that the Eternal Purpose of Christ is a backup plan because things went awry with adam and he brought sin into the world, then we have it backwards, and we are giving adam's creation purpose preeminence over Christ, and God's Eternal Purpose in Him and over the unsearchable Riches of Him and His Grace that God Eternally Purposed !