Is it Christ-Like to Insult?

[John of Japan]

Other Scriptures that make my point that harsh, insulting Christianity is wrong:

Ga 6:1--Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Gal. 5:22-23--But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Php 2:3--Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

And one that is ignored over and over on the BB:

1 Tim 5:1--Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren; The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity.

 

[John of Japan]

Here's another one that is ignored over and over on the BB (and yeah, okay, by me sometimes ):

2 Timothy 2
23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

What??? "In meekness"??? "Gentle unto all men"??? Hmm. Don't see any room for insults or name-calling there.

 

[Sapper Woody]

And one that is ignored over and over on the BB:

1 Tim 5:1--Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren; The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity.

JoJ, do you feel that this is speaking of an authority figure when it says elder, or do you think it is talking about age? Also, do you feel that the "rebuke not" is carried over to the other groups mentioned, or just "how to intreat" them?

 

[John of Japan]

JoJ, do you feel that this is speaking of an authority figure when it says elder, or do you think it is talking about age? Also, do you feel that the "rebuke not" is carried over to the other groups mentioned, or just "how to intreat" them?

I believe this is definitely talking about age rather than authority, as in a church elder, since after "elder" it refers to younger people. So I believe that older people are always to be treated with respect. I think this is ingrained in the human DNA, part of "natural revelation," since so many societies around the world believe in respect for the aged. Japan even has a "Respect for the Elderly" holiday. In America we have senior citizen discounts, etc.

Concerning the "rebuke," I think it applies just to the elders. We are not rebuke an elder but treat him as a father. We can rebuke the others, but are to do so as a relative, treating them as in the same Christian family.

 

[John of Japan]

I love the KJV and don't normally quote from other versions (unless it's my own rendering or a Japanese Bible :smilewinkgrin, but here is the ESV rendering of Matt. 5:21-22.

"You have heard that it was said to those of old, You shall not murder; and whosever murders will be liable to judgment. But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire."

This is in the Sermon on the Mount, quoting the Ten Commandments. It's part of the teaching of Christ that makes the Ten Commandments apply not just to the outward act but the inward attitude. If you make this cultural and only relevant to the 1st century...well, there goes the entire Sermon on the Mount! (Shades of the old hyper dispensationalism!)

 

[agedman]

I love the KJV and don't normally quote from other versions (unless it's my own rendering or a Japanese Bible :smilewinkgrin, but here is the ESV rendering of Matt. 5:21-22.

"You have heard that it was said to those of old, You shall not murder; and whosever murders will be liable to judgment. But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire."

This is in the Sermon on the Mount, quoting the Ten Commandments. It's part of the teaching of Christ that makes the Ten Commandments apply not just to the outward act but the inward attitude. If you make this cultural and only relevant to the 1st century...well, there goes the entire Sermon on the Mount! (Shades of the old hyper dispensationalism!)

I too enjoy the KJV, and used it as my primary reading (still do for my devotional life).

In more recent years, I have been tracking through the NASB and find it is so much closer to both modern and ancient text.

That said, I was intrigued by that rendering of Matt. and decided it might be good to post.

John, I would like your own wisdom on how the NASB treats this passage. It shows a far less tollerance level for snide remarks than what you posted.

21 “You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
​

Back in the day, I often heard the use of "you good-for-nothing" - especially from my teachers.

 

[Luke2427]

Perhaps it would seem that some desire to make the argument that accepting of some standard established by a person is warrant to disregard what some other assembly has established as their standard.

What Scriptures are found that allows folks to be critical of a pastor of another assembly - outside of doctrine and/or moral problems?

It IS a doctrinal problem. It is precisely the kind of problem NT authors faced MOST. The preaching of unbiblical standards.

Others may not agree with what that assembly views as Godly Christ-likeness in areas of personal appearance, conduct, associations...

However, I have not found Scriptural warrant to be critical of them, nor who they have chosen to lead them.

Then you've not read the Bible.

I dare say, that for the most part, the IFB leaders I have known personally, who have every reason to be "puffed up," are/were some of the most humble men I knew. They expressed wonder that God had given such unmerited favor to consider them as worthy of the work.

And for every one of you who bears that testimony there are 10 who say they have encountered some Pharisee turning people away from Christ with his ignorance and narrow-mindedness.

In contrast, I rarely met a SBC leader (be it at the association level or national) that was not "self important" in the power they could wield. I did meet some, but not often.

SBC leaders don't even COMPARE in arrogance to the likes of Jack Hyles, Bob Gray, Tony Hudson, Phil Kidd, Joe Arthur, and the list goes on and on...

Admittedly, I haven't had a lot of extensive contact with the SBC leadership(s) for nearly 40 years, so I would hope that the indictment would not stand valid in the current, but from what I have read of some of the fighting between conservative and liberals (who want to claim the title of moderate), not much has changed.

You'd have to comb through the SBC with a fine toothed comb to turn up a handful of real liberals.

 

[Luke2427]

I certainly agree. They think true courage comes from anonymous Internet criticism and name calling, and don't realize what it takes to truly forsake all. They don't even want to visit a mission field, because "After all," they think, "America is God's country."

This is beneath you- or it ought to be.

You have this habit that many of us find comon in IFB ranks of judging people you don't know.

The people you are talking about may have been skinned alive by Muslims for Christ for winning a small Islamic village to Jesus for all you know.

I grew up with these type IFB people who found it so easy to categorize people that they really knew nothing about.

But, the fact that you do it here does support what we are trying to say. For that- I thank you.

 

[Luke2427]

John, do you think everyone on this board who is saying "Lord, Lord" is anymore a true believer than the Pharisees?

One rule on here that I do not care for is that one cannot question another person's faith. I think that as believers, it might be the kindest thing we are allowed to do when we see people who seem off the charts. I'd rather be roughed up word-wise and questioned by someone who cared about my soul than patted on the back and sent on my way if they really wondered.

I was pretty sure at one point in my life that I had a handle on the truth. A "fellow believer" sent his wife out of the room with my/their kids, got up in my face, and insulted the TAR out of me and sent me on my way on off his property after telling me exactly where I was messed up theologically, how I wasn't a believer (and I wasn't) and telling me the TRUTH.

I continue to be grateful to this day.

AMEN!!!

Post of the thread so far!!

Thank you. This is the real world and its nice to visit it from bb sometimes!

:applause::applause::applause::applause:

Bravo!!

 

[Luke2427]

Other Scriptures that make my point that harsh, insulting Christianity is wrong:

Ga 6:1--Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Gal. 5:22-23--But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Php 2:3--Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

And one that is ignored over and over on the BB:

1 Tim 5:1--Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren; The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity.

And as I have pointed out to you, now multiple times, all of these are local church contexts and they do not erase all of the times that hard words are called for in the Bible.

 

[John of Japan]

I too enjoy the KJV, and used it as my primary reading (still do for my devotional life).

In more recent years, I have been tracking through the NASB and find it is so much closer to both modern and ancient text.

That said, I was intrigued by that rendering of Matt. and decided it might be good to post.

John, I would like your own wisdom on how the NASB treats this passage. It shows a far less tollerance level for snide remarks than what you posted.

21 “You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.​

All in all, as usual the NASB translates pretty literally and faithful to the original text, to a fault occasionally. In this case, translating the first Greek noun as "fool" is pretty standard, but "good for nothing" is a new one to me. The first Greek word, hraka, is actually a loan word from Aramaic that occurs nowhere else in the NT, but a few times in other documents from both classical and koine Greek. My BADG lexicon gives "a term of abuse, as a rule derived from the Aramaic...'empty one.'" Then it has "fool, empty-head."

The second word is moros, which is actually an adjective sometimes used as a noun. The fact that it is the root word for our English word "moron" is irrelevant to the Greek meaning. It occurs 13 times in the Greek NT, usually as an adjective but sometimes (like in Matt. 5:22) used as a noun. BAGD gives "foolish, stupid" as the meaning. So the two words are very similar in their meaning.

The interesting thing about the NASB rendering is the extra words initalics: "enough to go" to Hell, or Gehenna. At any rate, I think this warning from Jesus plays up the fact that insulting and name-calling are a sign of pride. I don't call someone else a fool unless I'm sure I'm not one, therefore putting myself above them. So much for "esteeming others better"! The sin of pride is considered by many to be the root sin for all others, and the sin that caused Satan to fall.
​

Back in the day, I often heard the use of "you good-for-nothing" - especially from my teachers.

Naw, couldn't be! :laugh:

 

[John of Japan]

This is beneath you- or it ought to be.

You have this habit that many of us find comon in IFB ranks of judging people you don't know.

The people you are talking about may have been skinned alive by Muslims for Christ for winning a small Islamic village to Jesus for all you know.

I grew up with these type IFB people who found it so easy to categorize people that they really knew nothing about.

But, the fact that you do it here does support what we are trying to say. For that- I thank you.

Check your shoe size. If it doesn't fit, I wasn't talking about you. It was simply a general statement. And anyway, if someone was skinned alive for preaching Christ, they certainly don't fit what I said.

 

[John of Japan]

Are you trying to say that calling out Charismatics and the falsehoods and phonies of the IFB movement is bad? It is certainly warranted to expose such types are false teachers and heretics. Its perfectly okay to call out the KJVO radicals and expose their false teachings and their wolf in sheeps clothing antics. Why not?

Rebuke is good and proper. Name calling and insulting is wrong. I am dead wrong if I do not rebuke error. I am also dead wrong if I rebuke error in a prideful way. We are to consider ourselves lest we also fail when we restore a sinner, according to the Bible.

 

[John of Japan]

John, do you think everyone on this board who is saying "Lord, Lord" is anymore a true believer than the Pharisees?

No I don't, but at least they have to claim Christ to be here. The Pharisees did not claim Christ, opposed Him at every turn and even tried to kill Him, eventually succeeding at getting Him on the cross. What Christ forbade in Matt. 5:22 was calling a brother fool.

One rule on here that I do not care for is that one cannot question another person's faith. I think that as believers, it might be the kindest thing we are allowed to do when we see people who seem off the charts. I'd rather be roughed up word-wise and questioned by someone who cared about my soul than patted on the back and sent on my way if they really wondered.

When I meet someone I am not sure is saved, I probe their hearts with the Word of God, praying for the Holy Spirit to convict them as I do. I don't see any need to insult, but there may be a need to rebuke. (There is a difference.) It is His job to convict of sin, not mine. I once did that here in Japan with a woman from a liberal church. After awhile she said, "Oh, you're talking about the Heaven of the Bible, not the Buddhist Paradise!" She trusted Christ as Savior that day, though she had been a professing Christian for 20 years.

I was pretty sure at one point in my life that I had a handle on the truth. A "fellow believer" sent his wife out of the room with my/their kids, got up in my face, and insulted the TAR out of me and sent me on my way on off his property after telling me exactly where I was messed up theologically, how I wasn't a believer (and I wasn't) and telling me the TRUTH.

I continue to be grateful to this day.

As well you should be grateful. But I have to ask, was it a rebuke for your false doctrine, or was it actual insulting and name calling? Did the man call you an idiot, fool, moron, etc.? Or did he just rebuke your failures?

The majority of people who claim to be believers? If they really were, our country wouldn't be in the state it is now. If just as many as are on this board were honest to goodness believers, we'd likely think we were seeing miracles all over the place just for the power of the prayer of the faithful.

I agree. I just believe far more good is done with compassion than anger and harshness. My grandfather used to say, "Any man who can preach on Hell without weeping is backslidden," and his life's verses were Ps. 126:5-6: "They that sow in tears shall reap in joy. 6 He that goeth forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed, shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bringing his sheaves with him."

 

[Luke2427]

No I don't, but at least they have to claim Christ to be here. The Pharisees did not claim Christ, opposed Him at every turn and even tried to kill Him, eventually succeeding at getting Him on the cross. What Christ forbade in Matt. 5:22 was calling a brother fool.

When I meet someone I am not sure is saved, I probe their hearts with the Word of God, praying for the Holy Spirit to convict them as I do. I don't see any need to insult, but there may be a need to rebuke. (There is a difference.) It is His job to convict of sin, not mine. I once did that here in Japan with a woman from a liberal church. After awhile she said, "Oh, you're talking about the Heaven of the Bible, not the Buddhist Paradise!" She trusted Christ as Savior that day, though she had been a professing Christian for 20 years.

As well you should be grateful. But I have to ask, was it a rebuke for your false doctrine, or was it actual insulting and name calling? Did the man call you an idiot, fool, moron, etc.? Or did he just rebuke your failures?

I agree. I just believe far more good is done with compassion than anger and harshness. My grandfather used to say, "Any man who can preach on Hell without weeping is backslidden," and his life's verses were Ps. 126:5-6: "They that sow in tears shall reap in joy. 6 He that goeth forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed, shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bringing his sheaves with him."

I'll not speak for Gina, but I will tell you that there have been plenty of times godly friends and pastors have pulled me aside and said, "You are being a fool! You need to stop being so proud and take the help offered to you!" or "That is a dangerous and fool-hearty thing for you to do!" or "Hey MORON! the answer is right in front of your face! You just don't WANT to see it!"

And I have had to stop and say, "You know what. He's right. He nailed it. I need to straighten up and fly right."

I think maybe in fundamentalist circles you are exposed to a very insecure people who cannot take that kind of rebuke so you don't even know how to process it and see it as a very good and godly thing to do.

But, try as you may, you are not going to convince even the remotest objective person that the Bible does not teach it.

Most of us thank God for such people in our lives. Fundamentalists may be too sensitive to be able to take that kind of thing- but the rest of the world appreciates it.

 

[John of Japan]

I think maybe in fundamentalist circles you are exposed to a very insecure people who cannot take that kind of rebuke so you don't even know how to process it and see it as a very good and godly thing to do.

First of all, you have no idea what kind of fundamentalist circles or other circles I have been exposed to. Secondly, the thread is not about fundamentalism, so it is not germane for you to continually bring it up.

 

[Aaron]

Just skimmed through this thread for the first time. The reason this is a "touchy" subject (it really isn't, but you know what I mean) is because it deals with a specific (fallen) human behavior, and a pet one at that.

 

[John of Japan]

Just skimmed through this thread for the first time. The reason this is a "touchy" subject (it really isn't, but you know what I mean) is because it deals with a specific (fallen) human behavior, and a pet one at that.

Well, I've certainly found that out, if I didn't know it already! :BangHead:

 

[HankD]

James 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.​

James 3

5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
7 For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:
8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.​

1 Peter 3:10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:​

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

It's amazing how much we've found to say about a subject that really only needs a two-letter reply: No.