Is predestination disturbing?

[dianetavegia]

Originally posted by King James:
"Satan is the author of sin."

How so? God created him perfect in all his ways.

Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, "Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren."

God has to give Satan permission.....

 

[OCC]

Yeah I hear ya Diane. I'm just saying, satan was created perfect in all his ways. Perfection cannot sin, otherwise it is not perfection.

Now...before someone says "what about Adam and Eve then?" let me say...who says they were perfect? God just said they were "good".

 

[johnp.]

Hello KJ.

I disagree. If God doesn't choose them, they CAN'T turn to God. It has nothing to do with being willing. This is the way it HAS to be if Calvinism is true. I grow weary of this kind of double speak from Calvinists.

See! I said Arminians understand Calvinism better than the Calvinists!
In trying to distance God from the decision making process one is denying His Sovereignty. That must be true. That is my standing place.


john.

 

[johnp.]

Hello TexasSky.

I don't know that I am really an Arminian. What I am is a Christian who reading God's word finds that Calvinism contradicts a tremendously large volume of scripture.

Are you reading it by yourself or are you being taught by an Arminian? Have you been through Calvins work at all or any of the other reformers and their offspring? They were some great brains.

The scripture says quite explicity to me that it is God that calls all the shots but it also says that we will all be taught by God.

Calvinism in Genesis 3.

It was the Lord that killed the first thing killed as a sacrifice. GE 3:21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them.
Without them asking forgiveness first.
GE 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
God says we must not be allowed to take life ourselves. That means that we cannot reach out.
GE 3:24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

And to make sure that we did not get our hands on it He left the way guarded so that we could not reach it. Then why does God still blame us?
RO 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

What you think? Good to meet you.

john.

 

[OCC]

Originally posted by johnp.:
Hello KJ.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I disagree. If God doesn't choose them, they CAN'T turn to God. It has nothing to do with being willing. This is the way it HAS to be if Calvinism is true. I grow weary of this kind of double speak from Calvinists.

See! I said Arminians understand Calvinism better than the Calvinists!
In trying to distance God from the decision making process one is denying His Sovereignty. That must be true. That is my standing place.

I never said I did misunderstand Calvinism, sunshine.


john. </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[Bob Krajcik]

Originally posted by King James:
If God doesn't choose them, they CAN'T turn to God.

King James:

They do not want to turn. They are by nature children of wrath, the things of God foolishness to them (1Cor 2:14).

Consider the attributes of God, especially divine mercy and divine justice, as one or other of these is directed towards a man (Rom 11:22). One the one side God intervenes with mercy and saves a man from sin, on the other side man is left to himself, God does not intervene, the man continues in sin and faces divine justice. Apart from particular and specific intervention none would be saved. All, by the first birth, are children of wrath by nature.

Ephesians 2:3 (KJV) Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

By grace,
Bob Krajcik
Mansfield, Ohio

 

[OCC]

"They do not want to turn. They are by nature children of wrath, the things of God foolishness to them (1Cor 2:14)."

Thanks Bob. I believe you've proven my point though. They are children of wrath therefore God doesn't WANT them to turn. It is not only that they don't want to turn, but that God doesn't want them to turn. That would be consistent with Calvinism but many Calvinists double talk.

 

[Bob Krajcik]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
How can WE know, then, no matter how nice a person we are or how we believe we are saved, that we are one of the elect and not just genetically an emotionally reachable and really nice damned to hell person? Couldn't there be some who are touched by the salvation message but not chosen for salvation?

Diane:

A start is recognizing our faith originates and stands by the power of God, and not by the wisdom of men (1Cor 2:5; Eph 5:8-9; Gal 3:2-3). I’ve said it previous, faith is an effect of which regeneration is the cause. We hear and believe, not that our believing is instrumental, we are under grace and not a judicial system of reward. Our believing is a result of the specific and particular decree of God, our having been chosen in Christ. We have no merit at all. We are saved from sin, and were the children of wrath even as others. Our faith is not a result of the strength of men but is according to the operation of God, and our faith does not stand in the strength of men.

Also a look at 1 John (the whole book) is a help especially as being sure of salvation is essential for joy (Neh 8:10).

1 John 1:4 (KJV) And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

By grace,
Bob Krajcik
Mansfield, Ohio

 

[Bob Krajcik]

Originally posted by King James:
"They do not want to turn. They are by nature children of wrath, the things of God foolishness to them (1Cor 2:14)."

Thanks Bob. I believe you've proven my point though. They are children of wrath therefore God doesn't WANT them to turn. It is not only that they don't want to turn, but that God doesn't want them to turn. That would be consistent with Calvinism but many Calvinists double talk.

King James,

This is a hard thing (Rom 11:32-36). God is sincere when he tells them to turn. I struggle with words here, but consider standing over a casket, and you know they will not come back. Do you not desire there coming? Paul was srious and sincere whenhe desired the salvation of Israel. When I pray for the salvation of otehrs, I am sincere. I must say, I hope someone would expalin this better than I have, ut I do believe God is sincere, but man left to himself has no desire towards God. Apart from intervention, none would come to Him

By grace,
Bob Krajcik
mansfield, Ohio

By garce,
Bob Krajcik
Mansfield, Ohio

 

[dianetavegia]

GRACIOUS BOB! I WAS BEING FACETIOUS! I do NOT doubt, in any way, my salvation or standing with our Lord! I was replying to Pastor Larry's post that said:


Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
God did not turn them against Him. They were turned against him from conception. God simply didn't change that. Their sinning is their choice. They can stop and turn to God at any time they so desire. They are not "willing" to turn to God, and so God simply lets them do what they want to do. He does not do that for his elect. He is under no obligation to do it for anyone. He would be perfectly just to let people go their own way and go to hell.

My reply was: King David, a man after God's own heart, said: When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

quote from Pastor Larry:
God did not turn them against Him. They were turned against him from conception. God simply didn't change that.

I replied: So do I understand you (Pastor Larry) to say we ALL were turned against God from conception but God chose to 'fix' some so that they could obtain salvation and left others for damnation?

Sorry for the misunderstanding, but THANK YOU for caring!

 

[Bob Krajcik]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
GRACIOUS BOB! I WAS BEING FACETIOUS! I do NOT doubt, in any way, my salvation or standing with our Lord! ... Sorry for the misunderstanding, but THANK YOU for caring! [/b]

Diane,

Well, I have to admit, I didn't care. You see, I never thought you doubted. When two different and opposing systems of belief are being discussed, what you asked seemed a reasonable and important question to ask in regards to understanding one side or the other. So, I quess I lost some points for not caring

By grace,
Bob Krajcik
Mansfield, Ohio

 

[dianetavegia]

Ah Bob.... and I thought you cared.

 

[Bob Krajcik]

Originally posted by Bob Krajcik:
A start is recognizing our faith originates and stands by the power of God, and not by the wisdom of men (1Cor 2:5; Eph 5:8-9; Gal 3:2-3). I’ve said it previous, faith is an effect of which regeneration is the cause. We hear and believe, not that our believing is instrumental, we are under grace and not a judicial system of reward. Our believing is a result of the specific and particular decree of God, our having been chosen in Christ. We have no merit at all. We are saved from sin, and were the children of wrath even as others. Our faith is not a result of the strength of men but is according to the operation of God, and our faith does not stand in the strength of men.

Also a look at 1 John (the whole book) is a help especially as being sure of salvation is essential for joy (Neh 8:10).

1 John 1:4 (KJV) And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

Looking back now, my answer might not be assuring to one that saw their faith as being the instrumental cause of their salvation. On the one system, man is the one that determines the identity of those to be saved, and with the other system, God in His Solitariness alone determines the identity of those to be saved, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. That aside, our understanding such things is not essential to our salvation.

By grace,
Bob Krajcik
Mansfield, Ohio

 

[Bob Krajcik]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
Ah Bob.... and I thought you cared.

Well, you got me now.

 

[Wes Outwest]

So, man has no faith except it be given him by God? Is that what you are saying?

You'd be wrong!

 

[Bob Krajcik]

Wes,

What you say really isn't supported by Scripture. Faith, the fruit of the Spirit, is not natural to man. Faith, after the flesh, is natural to man, and as such that faith is not faith of the operation of God. Man must be born again. The two systems are not to be reconciled, for on the one side God is central and alone determines the identity of the saved, and on the other man. There have been specific verses that I have posted showing faith is of the operation of God. You have failed to those verses, and they still say what they say. The verses say what they say. Your arguments have been wrong. Deal with those particular verses, the many, that I have posted showing faith is granted to us on behalf of Christ.

By grace,
Bob Krajcik
Mansfield, Ohio

 

[TexasSky]

People,

Let me ask you something.

In Egypt, when the first Passover happened, what were the "chosen men of God", the Israelites, told to do, in order to cause the angel of death to by-pass their house?

Answer: Put the blood of a sacrificial lamb on the doorposts.

What happened to anyone, Jewish or otherwise, who did not?

Answer: The angel of death stopped there.

Why do we call Christ the lamb of God?

Answer: He is the sacrifice that pardons us from sin.

What do we have to do to have the angel of eternal/spiritual death pass over us?

Answer: Rely on the blood of Christ.

Brother Joe asked if I prefer my soul to be in God's hands?

That is why I accepted the Lord as my Lord and Savior. I chose my soul to be in God's hands. I chose my soul to be in the hands of the God who says He loves us, and who sent His son to die for us, and who is "Patient and longsuffering" because He "desires that not man be condemended, and that all men repent." I prefer a loving God who offers grace to all men, to a God that says, "Okay, you guys don't stand a chance. I will never forgive you. I will never allow you enjoy the clensing of the blood of Christ. I will fix it so you CAN'T be saved. - Just because."

The God that you folks seem to preach reminds me more of some ancient Greek legend of Zeus, sitting up on Mt. Olympus going, "Hey, let's split the earth up into different parts, and we'll have a party and condemn 1/2 of em to hell and let 1/2 of em live with us, but we don't tell em which ones are which, so they go around trying to get in. It'll just be hilarious when they find out that in eternity the reason they died was because they never stood a chance not to. And I can't wait to see the look on that old woman's face who has prayed and prayed and prayed for her kid when she finds out that her kids never stood a chance because we were just pretending that it mattered whether they loved us or not."

That isn't my God people.

 

[Bob Krajcik]

TexasSky:

If you would be more specific, perhaps what another has said could be clarified. The god you say seems to be the one described by some here, would you be more specific, quote specifically what was said to make you say such a thing? If you would, perhaps an answer could be given to better explain what was said to make you conclude such a thing.

It is helpful to deal with specific words or passages of Scripture. I don't think any posting here want their beliefs to be out of harmony with the written word. There are differences in how various passages are understood, that is clear enough, and therefore those passages are being dealt with, at least some of the time.

Rather than being obscure, show specifics.

By grace,
Bob Krajcik
Mansfield, Ohio

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
To Whatever... You chose sin, have a sinful nature, because of the way you were created; the fall of Adam and Eve.

To not allow you the chance to repent of said sin, turn to God and accept the blood sacrifice freely given for the sins of the world is beyond my comprehension!

Thanks in advance for your response. I'll check back later.

Diane

Everyone does have the chance to repent of their sin. I am not sure where you got the idea that some cannot repent even if they want to. God will forgive anyone who will turn from their sin. But why would a sinner ever want to turn from their sin?

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by TexasSky:
I prefer a loving God who offers grace to all men, to a God that says, "Okay, you guys don't stand a chance. I will never forgive you. I will never allow you enjoy the clensing of the blood of Christ. I will fix it so you CAN'T be saved. - Just because."

This is an honest question on my part. It will probably sound mean and arrogant, and I do not intend for it to be that way, but I cannot think of a different way to ask it so here goes. What difference does it make what you prefer God to be like? God is what He declares Himself to be. His revelation of Himself, and that alone, should be what drives our theology. Our preferences are incapable for that task.