Is repentance needed for salvation?

[atpollard]

Guys of course Jesus was just joking when he went around telling people to repent cause he knew no one can repent unless he sticks his hand up your back and works you like a puppet.

Fortunately no one believes that God does that.
The only people that even CLAIM God does that throw it out as a satire of what they think other people might believe.

 

[atpollard]

Does God want and desire rebellion?

No, but God allows it and accounts for it in His eternal plan.

"But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.” [Genesis 50:20 NKJV]

“And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.” [Romans 8:28 NKJV]

 

[AustinC]

"Does God not get whatever He wants? Can humans deny God by the force of their own will so that God's will is defeated by man's will?"

God will get what he wants....HOW he wants it, not your way, not my way, the way he wants it.

If he wants it without force he can get it without force.

"He chooses whom He will make holy and whom He will give over to destruction."
We agree here only difference is I believe HOW he does it is his option. The method he chooses is his. If he decides well if sunlight touches anyone today they will be saved.....or if anyone feels wind from the south they will be damned.


God does not want you to SIN ever again. Show me in scripture where it says God wants and desires sin and disobedience.

Does God want you to sin yes or no? SATAN says yes, God wants you to sin, do you agree with satan?

We are not in disagreement here. Certainly God does whatever he wills.

We must trust God when he wills evil nation's to rise up. (Read Habakkuk sometime)

Whether we like it or not, God uses evil for good. Look at Job and see how God uses Satan to reveal his Sovereignty to Job.

So, your question is not a simple, easy answer. It is a question that the Pharisee's might ask Jesus to try trip him up. It's like the lawyer who asks a defendant, "When was the last time you stopped beating your wife."
God, for reasons He knows, chooses to use human rebellion to do his bidding and accomplish his will. He chooses to free some rebels from their bonds to sin while choosing not to free others. I do not know why this is. I do know that God tells us he does this in scripture.

 

[utilyan]

No, but God allows it and accounts for it in His eternal plan.

"But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.” [Genesis 50:20 NKJV]

“And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.” [Romans 8:28 NKJV]

100% AGREE. So it ought to be settled he WANTS and DESIRES ALL SAVED. People don't want it and he allows them to sin even though he does not WANT IT.

Someone tried to drown me with a water hose, i used the hose to water the plants and wash the car. What they meant evil for me I meant it for GOOD. That does not mean I WANT people to try to drown me.

 

[utilyan]

We are not in disagreement here. Certainly God does whatever he wills.

We must trust God when he wills evil nation's to rise up. (Read Habakkuk sometime)

Whether we like it or not, God uses evil for good. Look at Job and see how God uses Satan to reveal his Sovereignty to Job.

So, your question is not a simple, easy answer. It is a question that the Pharisee's might ask Jesus to try trip him up. It's like the lawyer who asks a defendant, "When was the last time you stopped beating your wife."
God, for reasons He knows, chooses to use human rebellion to do his bidding and accomplish his will. He chooses to free some rebels from their bonds to sin while choosing not to free others. I do not know why this is. I do know that God tells us he does this in scripture.

Job is a poor example. Under Calvinism SATAN won the challenge laughably complete victory. The entire point of the devil's challenge is that JOB was only loyal to God due to manipulation, bought loyalty from GOOD FORTUNE. In the case of Calvinism the Devil is Right JOB is only loyal to God because God completely manipulates JOB to do so.

Again the issue here is you are insisting the HOW condition of God's victory. I believe God will teach you how not to sin, rather than mindwipe you with a different soul.

God REALLY does not want you to sin. The only way YOU comprehend this is by FORCE. You say to yourself well if GOD REALLY didn't want me to sin he'd glorify with a nature that cant or freeze time or do a miracle or i'd drop dead right now,

For you, God REALLY not wanting you to sin cannot involve patience, setting example, education, gentleness, mercy, Love, because you were taught those things are weak, when reality is that is the ultimate power.

This is where you are stepping out of bounds. You are insisting HOW GOD is to do things YOUR WAY.

This is why I try to get you to admit if God wanted to run a different system could he do it? If God wants it to work by Calvinism he can do it he is GOD. Could he do things differently if he wanted to?????

 

[atpollard]

100% AGREE. So it ought to be settled he WANTS and DESIRES ALL SAVED. People don't want it and he allows them to sin even though he does not WANT IT.

I would not be so presumptuous as to tell God what He wants. I am comfortable believing that God DOES what He wants to do (NOBODY makes God do anything). I believe that what God does not do, He did not want to do.

To claim that God WANTS to do something (save all people) that God does not do (I read the end and all people are not saved) is to go beyond what God has revealed to me in His scripture by His Holy Spirit ... so I cannot affirm that.
(That was exactly the same issue that prevented me, in good conscience, from becoming a Catholic when I was first saved. The Church asked me to affirm truths that I did not believe because I could not see them in scripture.)

 

[AustinC]

Job is a poor example. Under Calvinism SATAN won the challenge laughably complete victory. The entire point of the devil's challenge is that JOB was only loyal to God due to manipulation, bought loyalty from GOOD FORTUNE. In the case of Calvinism the Devil is Right JOB is only loyal to God because God completely manipulates JOB to do so.

Again the issue here is you are insisting the HOW condition of God's victory. I believe God will teach you how not to sin, rather than mindwipe you with a different soul.

God REALLY does not want you to sin. The only way YOU comprehend this is by FORCE. You say to yourself well if GOD REALLY didn't want me to sin he'd glorify with a nature that cant or freeze time or do a miracle or i'd drop dead right now,

For you, God REALLY not wanting you to sin cannot involve patience, setting example, education, gentleness, mercy, Love, because you were taught those things are weak, when reality is that is the ultimate power.

This is where you are stepping out of bounds. You are insisting HOW GOD is to do things YOUR WAY.

This is why I try to get you to admit if God wanted to run a different system could he do it? If God wants it to work by Calvinism he can do it he is GOD. Could he do things differently if he wanted to?????

Your first two sentences are wrong.
God is in complete control in the book of Job. He uses Satan to accomplish His purpose. Satan is a pawn in a greater plan of God. You need to re-read the book of Job.

 

[atpollard]

100% AGREE. So it ought to be settled he WANTS and DESIRES ALL SAVED.

What is settled is that God WANTS and DESIRES obedience.
If Adam and all his descendants had obeyed, we would still be living in a Garden.

Man is unwilling and unable to perfectly obey, so we disagree about EXACTLY what God has done about it.

I believe scripture affirms that God SAVED all whom HE CHOSE to save. (I try not to tell other people what they believe; that is not productive.)

 

[utilyan]

I would not be so presumptuous as to tell God what He wants. I am comfortable believing that God DOES what He wants to do (NOBODY makes God do anything). I believe that what God does not do, He did not want to do.

To claim that God WANTS to do something (save all people) that God does not do (I read the end and all people are not saved) is to go beyond what God has revealed to me in His scripture by His Holy Spirit ... so I cannot affirm that.
(That was exactly the same issue that prevented me, in good conscience, from becoming a Catholic when I was first saved. The Church asked me to affirm truths that I did not believe because I could not see them in scripture.)

"I would not be so presumptuous as to tell God what He wants."
He told us that is the point of a command. TO TELL US WHAT HE WANTS.

The only folks who don't know is a slice of a small slice of Baptists and non-denoms, who find a need to defend gnostic rubbish.

"To claim that God WANTS to do something (save all people) that God does not do (I read the end and all people are not saved) is to go beyond "

Name one person guaranteed and judged by God to be in hell. Where scripture stands God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy that means 100% saved, SOME SAVED, or even 0% saved.

Again For you, God REALLY not wanting you to sin cannot involve patience, setting example, education, gentleness, mercy, Love, because you were taught those things are weak, when reality is that is the ultimate power.

God REALLY does not want you to sin. The only way YOU comprehend this is by FORCE. You say to yourself well if GOD REALLY didn't want me to sin he'd glorify with a nature that cant or freeze time or do a miracle or i'd drop dead right now,

You are the one going beyond placing your feeble human reasoning and forcing it on God.

 

[AustinC]

"I would not be so presumptuous as to tell God what He wants."
He told us that is the point of a command. TO TELL US WHAT HE WANTS.

The only folks who don't know is a slice of a small slice of Baptists and non-denoms, who find a need to defend gnostic rubbish.

"To claim that God WANTS to do something (save all people) that God does not do (I read the end and all people are not saved) is to go beyond "

Name one person guaranteed and judged by God to be in hell. Where scripture stands God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy that means 100% saved, SOME SAVED, or even 0% saved.

Again For you, God REALLY not wanting you to sin cannot involve patience, setting example, education, gentleness, mercy, Love, because you were taught those things are weak, when reality is that is the ultimate power.

God REALLY does not want you to sin. The only way YOU comprehend this is by FORCE. You say to yourself well if GOD REALLY didn't want me to sin he'd glorify with a nature that cant or freeze time or do a miracle or i'd drop dead right now,

You are the one going beyond placing your feeble human reasoning and forcing it on God.

Sigh...

 

[atpollard]

"I would not be so presumptuous as to tell God what He wants."
He told us that is the point of a command. TO TELL US WHAT HE WANTS.

1. Please provide the verse that tells us “the point of a command. [is] TO TELL US WHAT HE WANTS” so I will have more than “because you say so” to base that FACT on.
2. Please provide the scripture where God commands everyone (without exception) to “be saved”.

Name one person guaranteed and judged by God to be in hell.

Judas, the son of perdition.

Again For you, God REALLY not wanting you to sin cannot involve patience, setting example, education, gentleness, mercy, Love, because you were taught those things are weak, when reality is that is the ultimate power.

You fail as a mind reader. You do not correctly state my relationship with God.

God REALLY does not want you to sin. The only way YOU comprehend this is by FORCE. You say to yourself well if GOD REALLY didn't want me to sin he'd glorify with a nature that cant or freeze time or do a miracle or i'd drop dead right now,

I do not believe that I ever claimed that God wanted anyone to sin. I have steadfastly claimed that God has allowed every sin that has ever been committed, because it was within the power of God to stop it and God chose not to stop it.
Do you disagree with that statement of my beliefs?

I have also steadfastly maintained that no sin ever committed has ever derailed the eternal plan of God, but was already accounted for as part of the means that God was using to obtain His predetermined ends. The classic example is the sin of the sons of Jacob selling Joseph into slavery did not derail the plan of God, it actually advanced the plan of God by setting into motion the events that would ultimately give us the Passover as a foreshadow of the Christ that was to come.
Do you disagree with that statement of my beliefs?

Our conversations will flow better if you state what you believe and allow me to state my own beliefs. Mind reading what others believe seldom works.

 

[utilyan]

1. Please provide the verse that tells us “the point of a command. [is] TO TELL US WHAT HE WANTS” so I will have more than “because you say so” to base that FACT on.
2. Please provide the scripture where God commands everyone (without exception) to “be saved”.

Judas, the son of perdition.



You fail as a mind reader. You do not correctly state my relationship with God.


I do not believe that I ever claimed that God wanted anyone to sin. I have steadfastly claimed that God has allowed every sin that has ever been committed, because it was within the power of God to stop it and God chose not to stop it.
Do you disagree with that statement of my beliefs?

I have also steadfastly maintained that no sin ever committed has ever derailed the eternal plan of God, but was already accounted for as part of the means that God was using to obtain His predetermined ends. The classic example is the sin of the sons of Jacob selling Joseph into slavery did not derail the plan of God, it actually advanced the plan of God by setting into motion the events that would ultimately give us the Passover as a foreshadow of the Christ that was to come.
Do you disagree with that statement of my beliefs?

Our conversations will flow better if you state what you believe and allow me to state my own beliefs. Mind reading what others believe seldom works.

Command = AUTHORITIVE ORDER. JEWISH MITSVAH

AN ORDER = REQUEST.

REQUEST = IS A DESIRE/ WANT.


I'd love to see you guys in a court of law and say nothing in there says don't want us to run around shoot people. They would say you are nuts.




God commands everyone to wash their hands before they eat. Someone walks up and ask "did God want us to do anything before we eat?" We can count on you to tell this guy NO.....he didn't say he wanted anything at all.

Try this with your kids. Guys if I give you a command.....it doesn't mean i want it done.
Do you see how stupid that sounds?

 

[atpollard]

Do you see how stupid that sounds?

What I “see” is that you made a statement that may be true or false ... so I requested that you provide SCRIPTURE to support two of the unsupported claims in your statement ... and you have provided NO BIBLICAL SCRIPTURE to support your original claims.

Your opinions, and unwillingness to provide Scripture that supports those opinions, are both duly noted ... and dismissed.

Sola Scriptura.

 

[utilyan]

What I “see” is that you made a statement that may be true or false ... so I requested that you provide SCRIPTURE to support two of the unsupported claims in your statement ... and you have provided NO BIBLICAL SCRIPTURE to support your original claims.

Your opinions, and unwillingness to provide Scripture that supports those opinions, are both duly noted ... and dismissed.

Sola Scriptura.

Whereas you have zero scripture for SOLA SCRIPTURA.

Command indicates the desired ORDER, the Jewish MITSVAH.

Your argument is that Water is not H2O.

The torah teaches MITSVAH -->COMMAND

Not only God top desire his very love.

1 John 5
3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

Deuteronomy 5
29‘Oh that they had such a heart in them, that they would fear Me and keep all My commandments always, that it may be well with them and with their sons forever!

You are going to deny God's desire and want?

 

[AustinC]

.

 

[atpollard]

Well at least you are posting Scripture, now.

1 John 5
3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

You are aware that this verse is speaking of how people love God and not how God loves people. Lost sinners do not love God (John 3:18-19) and (Romans 1:18-32) and (Romans 3:9-20) talk about it.

Deuteronomy 5
29‘Oh that they had such a heart in them, that they would fear Me and keep all My commandments always, that it may be well with them and with their sons forever!

This is not a command. A command looks like this: [Leviticus 19:2 NKJV] 2 "Speak to all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say to them: 'You shall be holy, for I the LORD your God [am] holy.

The problem is that you made the following statements ...

So it ought to be settled he WANTS and DESIRES ALL SAVED.

He told us that is the point of a command. TO TELL US WHAT HE WANTS.

... and in response to your bold statements, all I requested was some scripture to support two details of your claims.

• Please provide the verse that tells us “the point of a command. [is] TO TELL US WHAT HE WANTS” so I will have more than “because you say so” to base that FACT on.

• Please provide the scripture where God commands everyone (without exception) to “be saved”.

Now could you please address the statements you made and the scripture supporting your statements that I requested?

 

[Hobie]

Fortunately no one believes that God does that.
The only people that even CLAIM God does that throw it out as a satire of what they think other people might believe.

Christ even told the Pharisees they needed to repent, even seeing their evil..

Matthew 3:7-9 King James Version (KJV)
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

 

[Barry Johnson]

Christ even told the Pharisees they needed to repent, even seeing their evil..

Matthew 3:7-9 King James Version (KJV)
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

They needed to change their minds about John's Baptism that they were rejecting .

 

[Hobie]

No, but God allows it and accounts for it in His eternal plan.

"But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.” [Genesis 50:20 NKJV]

“And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.” [Romans 8:28 NKJV]

But I dont think you really want to go into that part of the accounting...
Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[AustinC]

But I dont think you really want to go into that part of the accounting...
Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Do you not see the connection to Matthew 25 in Revelation 20?