Is the GOSPEL a work of the Holy Spirit, or not?

[DHK]

Read his post again. He said, and I quote, "The Gospel can be understood and believed by someone not yet regenerated." If he's trapped, he's trapped by his own words..

It is the gospel that is the power unto salvation. This is the only way.

The natural man doesn't come to faith. He cannot receive it.

You say this. You take 1Cor.2:14 (spoken to believers) out of its context to teach error.

Unless one is given an ear to hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches, one cannot receive the Gospel, because it is foolishness to him.

Foolishness.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

You have no verse that says the natural man can receive the things of God.

Seek ye the Lord while he may be found.
For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which is lost.
"For I am come not to call the righteous, but sinners unto repentance."

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. . . Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

Those verses don't teach Irresistible Grace. You only think they do, taking them out of context and squeezing them into a pre-conceive theology.

 

[Skandelon]

Read his post again. He said, and I quote, "The Gospel can be understood and believed by someone not yet regenerated." If he's trapped, he's trapped by his own words..

You think being a non-Calvinist, someone who denies regeneration precedes faith, makes me trapped? By what? Calvinism's unfounded and unproven premise. Fine by me.

The natural man doesn't come to faith. He cannot receive it.

If left on his own, you're right. But it is our contention, just like it is yours, that the Holy Spirit doesn't leave us alone. The difference is that you believe his work on us is effectual, while we believe it is resistible. You remember, that so-called "peripheral issue" you continually dismiss because you know it would completely undermine your premise?

Unless one is given an ear to hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches, one cannot receive the Gospel, because it is foolishness to him.

The only people not given an "ear to hear" are those under God's judicial hardening, which Israel just so happened to be during the first century founding of the church while God was grafting in the Gentiles; but again that important point of historical context seems to escape you as being yet another peripheral or unrelated matter.

You have no verse that says the natural man can receive the things of God.

Because they can't UNLESS the Spirit makes it known to them clearly. And what more clear way to make a mystery known than for the Holy Spirit to inspire God-appointed messengers to write it in the language of men (the scriptures) and preach it in their own tongues throughout the world? It called the GOSPEL, the Holy Spirit's means to discern otherwise mysterious an unknown truths of God. You are the ones who insist that work wasn't enough but that yet another, additional work of the HS must accompany that work in order for it to have any power. Maybe Paul should have said, "the 'Effectual Call' is the power of God unto salvation..." instead of the "Gospel?"

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

And how does God worketh in you? Through some secret irresistible means?

Is that the way he worked with Jonah to change his will? No. He used normative outward means.

Is that the way he worked with Paul? No. He used a blinding light and a prophet....normative outward means.

Is that the way he worked with Thomas? No. He showed himself through normative outward means.

Where does he use this inward irresistible "light switch" method where he just supernaturally makes someone who was unwilling to be willing? HE DOESN'T. He works in us to will through HIS APPOINTED MEANS, none of which involve an inward secret irresistible work.

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Interesting that Calvinists always use this verse, when in verse 12 he says, "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God."

Clearly, you don't even have the RIGHT to become a child of God until you believe, yet you'd have us believe that one must be born of God prior to believing. You got the cart before the horse.

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

And for what purpose do you presume He sends the Gospel to "every creature?" If to save only the elect ones (as is the Calvinistic system) then it has failed in every other instance, but if the words were sent to make the appeal to be "reconciled to God" (as Paul actually teaches) then it would NEVER fail under our system.

 

[quantumfaith]

You think being a non-Calvinist, someone who denies regeneration precedes faith, makes me trapped? By what? Calvinism's unfounded and unproven premise. Fine by me.

If left on his own, you're right. But it is our contention, just like it is yours, that the Holy Spirit doesn't leave us alone. The difference is that you believe his work on us is effectual, while we believe it is resistible. You remember, that so-called "peripheral issue" you continually dismiss because you know it would completely undermine your premise?

The only people not given an "ear to hear" are those under God's judicial hardening, which Israel just so happened to be during the first century founding of the church while God was grafting in the Gentiles; but again that important point of historical context seems to escape you as being yet another peripheral or unrelated matter.

Because they can't UNLESS the Spirit makes it known to them clearly. And what more clear way to make a mystery known than for the Holy Spirit to inspire God-appointed messengers to write it in the language of men (the scriptures) and preach it in their own tongues throughout the world? It called the GOSPEL, the Holy Spirit's means to discern otherwise mysterious an unknown truths of God. You are the ones who insist that work wasn't enough but that yet another, additional work of the HS must accompany that work in order for it to have any power. Maybe Paul should have said, "the 'Effectual Call' is the power of God unto salvation..." instead of the "Gospel?"

And how does God worketh in you? Through some secret irresistible means?

Is that the way he worked with Jonah to change his will? No. He used normative outward means.

Is that the way he worked with Paul? No. He used a blinding light and a prophet....normative outward means.

Is that the way he worked with Thomas? No. He showed himself through normative outward means.

Where does he use this inward irresistible "light switch" method where he just supernaturally makes someone who was unwilling to be willing? HE DOESN'T. He works in us to will through HIS APPOINTED MEANS, none of which involve an inward secret irresistible work.

Interesting that Calvinists always use this verse, when in verse 12 he says, "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God."

Clearly, you don't even have the RIGHT to become a child of God until you believe, yet you'd have us believe that one must be born of God prior to believing. You got the cart before the horse.

And for what purpose do you presume He sends the Gospel to "every creature?" If to save only the elect ones (as is the Calvinistic system) then it has failed in every other instance, but if the words were sent to make the appeal to be "reconciled to God" (as Paul actually teaches) then it would NEVER fail under our system.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Aaron]

You think being a non-Calvinist, someone who denies regeneration precedes faith, makes me trapped? By what? Calvinism's unfounded and unproven premise. Fine by me.

If left on his own, you're right. But it is our contention, just like it is yours, that the Holy Spirit doesn't leave us alone. The difference is that you believe his work on us is effectual, while we believe it is resistible. You remember, that so-called "peripheral issue" you continually dismiss because you know it would completely undermine your premise?

The only people not given an "ear to hear" are those under God's judicial hardening, which Israel just so happened to be during the first century founding of the church while God was grafting in the Gentiles; but again that important point of historical context seems to escape you as being yet another peripheral or unrelated matter.

Because they can't UNLESS the Spirit makes it known to them clearly. And what more clear way to make a mystery known than for the Holy Spirit to inspire God-appointed messengers to write it in the language of men (the scriptures) and preach it in their own tongues throughout the world? It called the GOSPEL, the Holy Spirit's means to discern otherwise mysterious an unknown truths of God. You are the ones who insist that work wasn't enough but that yet another, additional work of the HS must accompany that work in order for it to have any power. Maybe Paul should have said, "the 'Effectual Call' is the power of God unto salvation..." instead of the "Gospel?"

And how does God worketh in you? Through some secret irresistible means?

Is that the way he worked with Jonah to change his will? No. He used normative outward means.

Is that the way he worked with Paul? No. He used a blinding light and a prophet....normative outward means.

Is that the way he worked with Thomas? No. He showed himself through normative outward means.

Where does he use this inward irresistible "light switch" method where he just supernaturally makes someone who was unwilling to be willing? HE DOESN'T. He works in us to will through HIS APPOINTED MEANS, none of which involve an inward secret irresistible work.

Interesting that Calvinists always use this verse, when in verse 12 he says, "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God."

Clearly, you don't even have the RIGHT to become a child of God until you believe, yet you'd have us believe that one must be born of God prior to believing. You got the cart before the horse.

And for what purpose do you presume He sends the Gospel to "every creature?" If to save only the elect ones (as is the Calvinistic system) then it has failed in every other instance, but if the words were sent to make the appeal to be "reconciled to God" (as Paul actually teaches) then it would NEVER fail under our system.

Before, you said a man must be enabled to receive the Gospel. Now you say he already is able. He has that ability by nature. Are you sticking to this story, now?

 

[Winman]

Before, you said a man must be enabled to receive the Gospel. Now you say he already is able. He has that ability by nature. Are you sticking to this story, now?

If you came to my door and it was locked, you could not enter could you? It is not that you lack the ability to walk through my doorway, you do, but the door is locked. If I unlock the door and open it, I have enabled you to enter. But you walk in with the ability you already possessed.

Men have the ability to believe, we all exercise faith many times daily. But no man can believe what he does not know. When God revealed Jesus to us by his scripture, we were all enabled to believe, but we believe with our own ability.

I hardly believe this is too difficult for you to understand, I could have easily understood this when I was seven years old.

 

[Skandelon]

Winman, I appreciate your trying to explain it to him, but I think it is quite evident he doesn't want to understand our point of view. He want's to criticize it, demean it, and undermine it by whatever means possible which necessitates that he takes something very simple and try to make it seem extreme, complex and self-contradictory.

Of course, you are right. This is so simple to understand that a elementary school kid could get it, and I think Aaron really does understand it. He is just being purposefully obtuse so as to frustrate and belittle us. I'm not sure it's worth our time attempting to explain it yet again.

 

[convicted1]

Reply to Bro. Dallas(Frogman)

Bro. Dallas,

I am going to respond to some of what you posted to me, and because of it's length, I may not get to all of it. Okay?

Yes, they will not because prior to regeneration they possess only a will that is dead in trespasses and sins.

Here are the two verses you used to support your view:

Eph. 2:1 and Col. 2:13

Now, lets look at Eph. 2:1, and go just a few verses further down and see what it means to be "quickened".

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

So, here, Apostle Paul is telling us that Jesus has "quickened" us(made us alive)in Him. If we are in Him, were are saved/regenerated by His blood. We are regenerated/quickened/made alive via His blood. In this passage, they weren't quickened "to hear"(made alive to hear), but quickened because they heard, and were placed in Jesus Christ.

Now, let's expand Col. 2:13 and get to the "meat of the bone":

Col. 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.


Look at how Apostle Paul wrote this. In verse ten he states "ye are complete in Him. In verse twelve, "buried with Him in baptism. In verse thirteen, "quickened together with Him. When we are quickened/made alive, we are regenerated/saved. Salvation does come in "clumps and/or wads", but is a package deal. When we are saved, we are placed in Him, and not before we are saved.


I will respond to the other parts of your post in the next/following posts. I love you, Bro. Dallas!!

 

[convicted1]

Bro. Dallas, you posted:

[The context says Wisdom crieth in the streets; Wisdom is Christ as Proverbs teaches us.

The beginning of Proverbs 1 is addressed to "MY SON"

Yes, that is correct. But back up to verse twenty-two, and you will see that God isn't referring to Jesus(My Son), from verse twenty-three to the end of that chapter.

Prov. 1:22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?

23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

Here, God is speaking to ye simple ones, those who would not turn at His reproof. Unless, you believe that God was calling "My Son" a simple one, He wasn't talking about Jesus. And FTR, I know you know that He wasn't calling "My Son" a simple one, just trying to prove a point.

 

[convicted1]

Bro. Dallas, you posted this:

This entire passage of Proverbs is again speaking of or Time Salvation, Jacob, in his dispersion and trouble since A.D. 70 can testify to that. No man has an ability to choose Christ for Romans 8:7 tells us the carnal mind is enmity against God and is not subject to the law of God and neither can be. It does not tell us our minds in the natural unregenerate carnal state is becoming an enemy to God, but that it is enmity. The unregenerate do not, cannot turn to God through Christ simply because they will not, meaning as I said above, they possess a will that is in bondage to sin and death.

First off, please explain "time salvation" to me. I have googled it, and even went to ask.com, and it seems "fuzzy" to me, and it kinda sounds like there is more than one type of salvation. Please explain this to me.

Okay, let's expand Romans 8:7 a little bit, Brother.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Well, as you can see in verses one and two, Apostle Paul is explicitly speaking about those who are already in Christ. They are now spiritually minded because they have been placed in Christ via the blood. I agree that no one will come to the Father, except he first be drawn/called.

What I am trying to say dear Brother is this; you become spiritually minded when you are placed in Christ(or this is how I see it, but could be wrong), and not before. When God comes in and cleans the "inner man", He cleans him up. Now the spiritual mind that He gives us, helps us whenever satan comes along and entices us with the things of the world, such as the things we did prior to being saved.

 

[convicted1]

Bro. Dallas, you posted this:

Please see my response above. John 6 tells us (according to the words of Christ) this:
Regardless of belief, faith, practice, order, or what is taught among men, ALL for whom Christ died are they of whom the Father has given to him (Ephesians 1 tells us this occurred before the foundation of the world and that these are made accepted in the beloved, the scripture nowhere states that we accept the beloved and become His to redeem). IF the Father gave to Christ EVERY member of Adam's race, then HE should LOSE nothing, but should RAISE it up again at the last day. Clearly stated, no confusion.

And then you used John 6:39 for your proof. Now let's expand that a little bit more and find out who Jesus is talking about.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Here, Jesus is talking of those who would come to Him while He was in His fleshly body. None of those could come to Him at that time, unless God drew them. Sure, it's that way now, in that He first calls/draws us, but at that time, He was talking about those who were with Him while He was here on earth.

Romans 5:6 states that Christ died for the ungodly. It also states that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. So, Jesus died for all humanity, and not some.

 

[Aaron]

If you came to my door and it was locked, you could not enter could you? It is not that you lack the ability to walk through my doorway, you do, but the door is locked. If I unlock the door and open it, I have enabled you to enter. But you walk in with the ability you already possessed.

Men have the ability to believe, we all exercise faith many times daily. But no man can believe what he does not know. When God revealed Jesus to us by his scripture, we were all enabled to believe, but we believe with our own ability.

I hardly believe this is too difficult for you to understand, I could have easily understood this when I was seven years old.

Winman, I know what you think. This exchange with Scandal traverses several different threads. What you're describing is NOT what Scandal has asserted in the past. Just wondering if he's going to stick to his story this time.

 

[Skandelon]

Winman, I appreciate your trying to explain it to him, but I think it is quite evident he doesn't want to understand our point of view. He want's to criticize it, demean it, and undermine it by whatever means possible which necessitates that he takes something very simple and try to make it seem extreme, complex and self-contradictory.

Of course, you are right. This is so simple to understand that a elementary school kid could get it, and I think Aaron really does understand it. He is just being purposefully obtuse so as to frustrate and belittle us. I'm not sure it's worth our time attempting to explain it yet again.

See, his post above is case in point of what I just told you. Instead of dealing with my view, he pretends as if I've changed it, but the only thing that has changed is his representation of my views. He gets confused as to which words I actually said and which ones he put in my mouth.

 

[InTheLight]

This is so simple to understand that a elementary school kid could get it, and I think Aaron really does understand it. He is just being purposefully obtuse so as to frustrate and belittle us. I'm not sure it's worth our time attempting to explain it yet again.

Put Aaron in the killfile and be done with it.

 

[Van]

You know, In the Light, I have prayed about that, about concluding that Calvinism's acolytes have so hardened themselves they are unable to receive truth, because of the manifold examples we see on this and every other board. But I did not have peace with that conclusion, so I remain committed to continuing to presenting the truth in one way and then another such that we might help some become more effective in the ministry of Christ.

 

[InTheLight]

You know, In the Light, I have prayed about that, about concluding that Calvinism's acolytes have so hardened themselves they are unable to receive truth, because of the manifold examples we see on this and every other board. But I did not have peace with that conclusion, so I remain committed to continuing to presenting the truth in one way and then another such that we might help some become more effective in the ministry of Christ.

I agree with your conclusions to continue to present your beliefs, but I question the need to respond to intractable posters that put words in your mouth, belittle you, and misrepresent your beliefs. Why endure that?

 

[quantumfaith]

I agree with your conclusions to continue to present your beliefs, but I question the need to respond to intractable posters that put words in your mouth, belittle you, and misrepresent your beliefs. Why endure that?

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Put Aaron in the killfile and be done with it.

And whats that supposed to mean?

 

[quantumfaith]

And whats that supposed to mean?

It means click "Ignore".

 

[Aaron]

See, his post above is case in point of what I just told you. Instead of dealing with my view, he pretends as if I've changed it, but the only thing that has changed is his representation of my views. He gets confused as to which words I actually said and which ones he put in my mouth.

Your own words, if you wish.

After someone hears the gospel they are affected. They may not yet be made alive or made new, but they have been given what is needed to respond in faith, so they are not merely natural men acting on their own without the spirit as you attempt to make it appear.

As you can see, he asserted that something was added to the natural man when he heard the Gospel that enabled him to respond or not.

This is quite different than the view Winman posed, that of nothing added to the man, merely a door being opened before him, and quite different from what he is asserting in this thread.

Just want to know which story he has finally decided to believe.

 

[Don]

Just out of curiosity: Is the changing of his name considered a personal attack?