Is the gospel necessary for salvation?

[37818]

You may have memory loss since I have provided many documents and passages to show you your error.

This is an empty claim. Post#?

So, only those particular people God chose and elected before the foundation of the world.

So why are names in some said book to begin with? Exodus 32:33, ". . . And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. . . ." Psalms 69:27-28. Revelation 3:5.

Did I say that?
I said that we are not given the list of those who are written into the Covenant book and will thus receive their inheritance.

By faith and by perseverance in faith, I stand with full assurance in Christ alone. I am comfortable in entrusting my soul to my Savior.

1 John 5:9-13 says we can know.

 

[John of Japan]

I am glad to see that you have been able to lead people to faith in Christ Jesus. As for those type of books I do not read them so sorry can't help you. You are basing all your views on what you have done or read. That's fine. I base mine on reading the bible, which you disagree with so as I said there is the divide.

Wow. Someone disagrees with you, even quoting the Bible, so you proudly pat yourself on the back and say the other guy is basing his view on experience and not on the word of God.

I have given you clear Scripture that you refuse to interact with. So again, you say that people can get saved without Jesus, but Jesus said in John 14:6, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." So, was Jesus lying?

 

[AustinC]

So why are names in some said book to begin with? Exodus 32:33, ". . . And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. . . ." Psalms 69:27-28. Revelation 3:5.

There is more than one book. In the context of the Sinai Covenant the Covenant is temporary and one could be removed from that Covenant. Thus...blotted out of the book.
I have mentioned this before. You do not understand God's covenants so you struggle to understand what God is doing. Therefore you have created a theology from a few sentences that is contradictory on various levels. Yet, here you are, still arguing that your contradictions must be correct.

1 John 5:9-13 says we can know.

Already dealt with and addressed. 1John 5 tells us that those whom God has caused to be born again will believe and thus know the one who made them alive.
But, you consistently want to ignore the verses in front and after your verses. Why you do that is unknown, except that seeing the whole shows your contradictions and you don't want that.

 

[canadyjd]

That is your opinion and you are welcome to it. That you have such a limited view of God's sovereignty is something that you will have to deal with.

My “opinion” is based on the clear teaching of scripture.

Many passages of scripture have been referenced to prove the necessity of the gospel in salvation. That is the means by which God was “well pleased” (I.e. God, in HIS SOVEREIGNTY, has ordained it!!!!) through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

You deny scripture that God, in His sovereignty, has ordained the gospel as the means by which His people will be saved.

You deny God’s sovereignty in determining the means of bringing people to salvation. You continuously ignore these many passages of scripture in favor of your “opinion”

Your attempt to exclude the gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified from salvation is an attack upon our Lord and Savior. Your “true trust” false gospel makes the cross of Christ unnecessary. It neuters His authority as our Great High Priest. It makes a mockery of His sacrificial atonement.

Your “true trust” false gospel literally rips the Christian faith off its foundation.

Peace to you

 

[37818]

There is more than one book. In the context of the Sinai Covenant the Covenant is temporary and one could be removed from that Covenant. Thus...blotted out of the book.
I have mentioned this before. You do not understand God's covenants so you struggle to understand what God is doing. Therefore you have created a theology from a few sentences that is contradictory on various levels. Yet, here you are, still arguing that your contradictions must be correct.

Yes, there are more than one book, Revelation 20:11-15. In the matter of not perishing, only one book matters. First mention names being removed, second mention. And a third mention about not to be removed. Believe as you will.

I have mentioned this before. You do not understand God's covenants so you struggle to understand what God is doing. Therefore you have created a theology from a few sentences that is contradictory on various levels. Yet, here you are, still arguing that your contradictions must be correct.

So you believe.

Already dealt with and addressed. 1John 5 tells us that those whom God has caused to be born again will believe and thus know the one who made them alive.
But, you consistently want to ignore the verses in front and after your verses. Why you do that is unknown, except that seeing the whole shows your contradictions and you don't want that

The contradictions are in your view, not mine.

 

[AustinC]

Yes, there are more than one book, Revelation 20:11-15. In the matter of not perishing, only one book matters. First mention names being removed, second mention. And a third mention about not to be removed. Believe as you will.


So you believe.

The contradictions are in your view, not mine.

I see you continue to not see nor hear. So be it.

 

[37818]

I see you continue to not see nor hear. So be it.

Romans 2:1, ". . . Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. . . ."

Of course, that applies to both of us.

 

[kyredneck]

If you are saying they are saved prior to hearing the gospel, I disagree.

Yes, we disagree.

To you, the gospel is the means that 'saves from hell'.

I know it to be the good news that we've been saved from hell.

2 Timothy 1:10

 

[AustinC]

Romans 2:1, ". . . Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. . . ."

Of course, that applies to both of us.

Do you understand the context of this verse as it relates to Paul's argument in the first eleven chapters of Romans? If so, please expound on the argument Paul is making.

 

[37818]

Do you understand the context of this verse as it relates to Paul's argument in the first eleven chapters of Romans? If so, please expound on the argument Paul is making.

Not going to. You do know what ". . ." is, do you not?

 

[unprofitable]

Brother Silverhair.

Do you believe that Adam and Eve did not understand and see Christ and his kingdom in the sacrifice of the ram offered for them in Genesis 3:21.

How could David be described as a man after God's own heart and not know the gospel of the kingdom? The scriptures tell us because God gave him a new heart (like unto me). (Ezekiel 36:26-27) David was of the spiritual seedline of the prophecy that Moses gave in Deuteronomy 18:15 when he said, "The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet, from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, LIKE UNTO ME (having the heart and spirit of God), unto him shall ye hearken." This was the command to Israel who the Lord would approve the lead them in the way of salvation. It is repeated in Acts 13:22.

If people can be saved without the knowledge of Christ, to whom are they hearkening?

If there is another way of salvation, you should be able to be a witness of it and tell us what it is.

Concerning the prophets and righteous men, 1 Peter 1:10 says, "Of which SALVATION the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you. (Christ and his kingdom, THE GOSPEL) vs 10. Searching what or what matter of time the Spirit of Christ which WAS IN THEM did signify when IT DID TESTIFY/WITNESS beforehand, the sufferings OF CHRIST AND THE GLORY THAT SHOULD FOLLOW, 12 Unto whom IT WAS REVEALED that not unto themselves but unto us they did minister/witness the things which are now reported unto you by them that have preached THE GOSPEL unto you by the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven, which things the angel desire to look into.

The spirit of Christ can only testify of the Godhead of which those in Christ are witnesses.

The above had been and were witness of Christ and his glory and continues be glorified in the scriptural church.
Ephesians 3:21 states, "Unto him be GLORY in the church BY CHRIST JESUS throughout ages, world without end, Amen.

Colossians 1:16, "For BY HIM were all things created, that are in heaven and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and for him (HIS GLORY)
Colossians 1:18 says, "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he might have the preeminence/GLORY."

John 17:22 "And the GLORY thou hast given me I have given them, that they may be one even as we are one."
Isaiah 54:17."...this is the heritage/inheritance of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is OF ME saith the Lord. This is the imputed righteousness of Christ. What/whose righteousness do these people saved by some other way belong to?

Since all things were created for him and his glory, how can something not created by him (false doctrine or way of salvation) glorify him?

How can Christ be glorified and have the preeminence in things that cannot give him the glory because they are "saved" some other way?

How can a thing "saved" give the glory of salvation (his sufferings and the glory that should follow) unto a way not created to glorify Christ, the way?

How can it (them) be a TRUE witness of the glory/righteousness/salvation of a Christ of which they have no knowledge?

 

[Marooncat79]

Without faith it is impossible to please God

Romans. So faith comes by hearing (or reading) the Word of God

 

[AustinC]

Not going to. You do know what ". . ." is, do you not?

I take this as you don't know the context or the argument Paul is making from chapter 1 through chapter 11 of Romans. But, you plucked a verse you thought would be a dig against me so you just quoted it without knowing.

 

[John of Japan]

If you want to take the position that preaching the gospel is no longer needed than that is your choice. It is not what I said but then you are being a bit over the top with some of your comments and conclusions. That is why I said you were being angry and not very logical.

I DO NOT take the position that preaching the Gospel is no longer needed. You are misconstruing what I wrote. I said very clearly, that is where your position logically leads. If you refuse to interact with my logical syllogism, that's up to you. I've made my point.

I have read your posts and you really do not accept the idea that God can be God and can save however He wishes.

I have not said this, nor do I believe it. So you are bearing false witness about me, something the Bible strongly condemns. You are sinning when you misconstrue me like this.

When God says one can seek and find Him then that is what it means. When one finds God do you think God just says that’s nice now go away. Do you not think finding God means trusting in Him and if one trust in Him do you not think God would save that person?

Did you totally miss my point based on Matthew 7:7? When a person honestly seeks God, the Lord provides a way for him to hear the Gospel. I could give many illustrations from history. Can you give a single example of someone who got saved without Christ? Just one? No? I thought not.

Why are you ignoring key parts of my posts? Stop misconstruing my position. I believe you can do better than this, and so please interact honestly and carefully with what I've written.

Here you are going over the top again. You seem to be afraid that your lives work will be of no import. That is not what I am saying so please relax.

Believe me, I'm totally secure in my life's work, and not worried in the slightest that it is of no import. God is so good to have let me be a missionary and now a professor teaching missions.

I trust that preaching the word of God is important but it is not the only way that God provides for man to know Him. You say on one hand that God can do what He pleases but then say but He can only do it this way that is a contradiction.

No contradiction whatsoever. God can do many things that He doesn't do. Surely that's obvious. He could crash Venus into Jupiter, but He doesn't. He could save people without the Gospel, but He doesn't.

You hold that a man can only be saved one way whereas I do not. That is the divide. Is Jesus God, YES, have people trusted in Him through the revelation found in the bible yes, I am not questioning that. Who is the God of creation, Jesus, so when the bible tells us we can know this God of creation who would the be? If we reject this God of creation who are we rejecting? So no I am not making Jesus a liar.

You did not interact with the words of Jesus, but just dismissed them without explaining what Jesus meant with His clear statement. Jesus said that there is only one way to the Father (Who is in Heaven). You say there are other ways. You are saying that Jesus is wrong. Very simple logic. I rest my case.

I have to ask, though, do you purposefully misconstrue what I write? You've done it over and over. If you are doing this on purpose, thinking it is good debate technique. It's not. It just makes me think, "Man, this guy can't understand the simplest things I write."

 

[unprofitable]

But not the elects election. God's choosing in Christ is.

Who are then the elect if they are different from the choosing?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Actually what I have posted about calvinism is the words from calvinism

What 'words from Calvinism'? You have just taken some verses from the Bible and claimed, falsely, that Calvinists don't believe them. If you knew anything about Calvinism you would know how silly that makes you look.

 

[John of Japan]

Folks, there are many clear examples from missions history of individuals or people groups who seek God because of general/natural revelation and find Him through the Gospel. The key passage here is Matthew 7:7, "Seek and ye shall find." However, in Romans 1, the passage Silverhair likes so much, the word "save" in its forms only appears in v. 16, which is clearly about the Gospel, not natural revelation. The passage on natural revelation there does not mention salvation, but only teaches that God can clearly be seen in nature.

I've mentioned two books along the line of heathen people seeking Christ and then God sending someone to them. Bill Rice took a trip to Africa in the 1950s and wrote a book about it, Cowboy Boots in Darkest Africa. In Ch. 13 he tells about going to a pygmy tribe deep in the jungle where no white man had ever been. He had a hard time getting them to hear the Gospel; they were more interested in the strange, huge, white man. But one day after he talked of the love of God and how He sent Jesus, an old pygmy named Tarasi said, "I thought it must be something like that. Many times I have climbed the highest tree and have looked far into the sky, trying to see God. I felt sure He must be up there someplace. And again and again I have called, God are You there? Can you hear me? Do you see little old Tarasi. God, I am afraid--come and help Tarasi." He continued, "I thought God surely must have some way of helping poor old Tarasi.... I am glad to hear of Jesus and to know that He died for me.... I thought it must be something like that" (p. 140). Revival came to the pygmies, and many trusted Christ, with Tarasi being the first and his son the second.

So you see, Silverhair's doctrine is wrong empirically, not just Biblically. I have challenged Silverhair to produce one single person who became saved without Christ from missions history, biographies, etc. He can't do it, because it doesn't happen.

 

[37818]

Who are then the elect if they are different from the choosing?

It is the differnce in time. God choosing in Christ is before mankind was. The elect are after being called in time.

 

[AustinC]

It is the differnce in time. God choosing in Christ is before mankind was. The elect are after being called in time.

Not taught like this in the Bible, yet held by yourself. You will not see nor hear what the Bible tells you on this matter. Instead, you prefer to live in contradiction.

 

[John of Japan]

Another great book along the line of salvation and natural revelation is Eternity in their Hearts, by Don Richardson. This book changed missiology in 1981. The premise was that many people groups have something in their belief system or legends that point to the Gospel. When the missionary goes to them, he discovers this belief. The term for the principle is redemptive analogy.

Richardson began thinking along these lines when he and his wife tried to reach the Sawi headhunters in New Guinea. He wrote the story in his famous book, Peace Child--a fascinating read! The redemptive analogy he learned was that when the Sawi made peace, the chiefs traded their babies. When the Sawi learned that God Himself did this, sending Christ to His enemies to make peace with them, revival came and many Sawi were saved.

In Eternity in Their Hearts, Richardson tells many other stories of how missionaries have discovered redemptive analogies: the story of Paul in Athens, the story of Lars Skrefsrud reaching the Santal people of India who had a tradition of a "true god" they did not worship; the story of Adoniram Judson and the Karen tribespeople of Burma, who had a tradition of a lost book that a "white brother" would bring to them; and many others.

So, with natural revelation heathen people can learn of God, but it takes a messenger from God with the Gospel to bring them to salvation. However, if a tribe or an individual truly seeks God, He will send them a preacher. Paul taught this in Romans 10:13-15: "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"