Is there ever a time to lie?

[Dr. Bob]

The only "deceit" I could ever justify would be in wartime. You don't tell the enemy all your plans, etc.

3 days after June 6 1944 Hitler STILL believed the Normandy invasion was a "diversion" . . and the well-orchestrated deception worked.

(Rahab was in a time of war as you recall)

 

[Alcott]

Be it known I have edited posts which contained a question meant as an example which caused a greater dilemma than the subject itself here.

So getting back to it... in which of these cases would a deception or evasion be an unjustified lie?

Telling a burglar holding you at gun or knife point that you have "nothing of value" to be taken, when you have money, jewelry, et al?

In a job interview you say the company is a "great one to work for" when you really consider it average at best.

A friend is an amateur artist who paints a picture you consider ghastly; he asks his opinion and you say "I've never seen anything like it!"

 

[PastorSBC1303]

(Rahab was in a time of war as you recall)

Were the Egyptian midwives in a time of war too?

 

[Aaron]

Aaron; Are you saying that under the NT, the death of Christ made it so we could still live as King David did and commit adultery, its just that if we have Christ, it don't count against us???

BBob,

My point is that we have fundamentally different views of the law and righteousness, and therefore fundamentally different views of the nature of God, man and the Atonement, and your question is a prime example.

A Christian can fall into adultery. Absolutely. Can he remain? Absolutely not. The man who had his father's wife mentioned in 1 Cor. 5 was a Christian, and his positive response to the discipline of the church proved it.

But the reason I can say that and you can't is because of our fundamentally different theologies.

If you're saying you're not guilty of adultery, you're telling me that you don't even have lust in your heart, and I find that pretty hard to believe. Whether you committed the act, or whether it's in your heart alone is no different to God, brother.

But you have to understand something, I don't believe the midwives nor Rahab lied.

 

[Aaron]

Telling a burglar holding you at gun or knife point that you have "nothing of value" to be taken, when you have money, jewelry, et al?

Unjustified.

In a job interview you say the company is a "great one to work for" when you really consider it average at best.

Unjustified

A friend is an amateur artist who paints a picture you consider ghastly; he asks his opinion and you say "I've never seen anything like it!"

Unjustified.

 

[Joe]

But you have to understand something, I don't believe the midwives nor Rahab lied.

Except the midwives did lie to save the babies. They lied because they feared God. They were commanded by Pharaoh to kill the male babies yet they defied his order and lied about it

Ex 1:15-12 The king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, whose names were Shiphrah and Puah, 16 "When you help the Hebrew women in childbirth and observe them on the delivery stool, if it is a boy, kill him; but if it is a girl, let her live." 17 The midwives, however, feared God and did not do what the king of Egypt had told them to do; they let the boys live. 18 Then the king of Egypt summoned the midwives and asked them, "Why have you done this? Why have you let the boys live?"

19 The midwives answered Pharaoh, "Hebrew women are not like Egyptian women; they are vigorous and give birth before the midwives arrive."

20 So God was kind to the midwives and the people increased and became even more numerous. 21 And because the midwives feared God, he gave them families of their own.

 

[Brother Bob]

My point is that we have fundamentally different views of the law and righteousness, and therefore fundamentally different views of the nature of God, man and the Atonement, and your question is a prime example.

A Christian can fall into adultery. Absolutely. Can he remain? Absolutely not. The man who had his father's wife mentioned in 1 Cor. 5 was a Christian, and his positive response to the discipline of the church proved it.

But the reason I can say that and you can't is because of our fundamentally different theologies.

If you're saying you're not guilty of adultery, you're telling me that you don't even have lust in your heart, and I find that pretty hard to believe. Whether you committed the act, or whether it's in your heart alone is no different to God, brother.

But you have to understand something, I don't believe the midwives nor Rahab lied.

Aaron;
I respect your veiws and of course you are entitled to believe as you do. I not only believe we are saved by God's Grace, which is to forgive us for such things as adultery, I also believe that same Grace is strong enough to keep me from going back into that condition. You seem to not believe that. I do not believe the man in Corth was a saved individual and they cast him from them, he did finally repent and they took him in. Most seem to believe that everyone in the house in the 7 churches of Asia were saved, but this was a time of transition from the Law to the Grace Covenant and there were many there to see what the Grace Covenant was. I believe after they were saved and received the Holy Ghost that God's Grace kept them from such sins.

Now to lust after a woman is more than thinking a woman is pretty. I think some are ugly, does that help me in the adultery department, NO. To commit adultery in the heart is to look upon a woman with lust in your heart and desire to have that woman. I do not do that, for I got enough sense to "move on" and not dwell on such things. I am a minister of God, called to preach the Gospel and I take it very seriously. I doubt if you stand around lusting for another woman, but I really do not know you, except to sense the tone of humbleness you speak with. I also believe you do everything you can to not tell a lie and if a person so desires not to lie, do you not think God will help him live up to that?
To be honest, I did not know so many thought Christians could commit adultery, until I came on BB. It has been a let down for me to discover that. I would hope that all Christians would have enough faith in God that He will deliver them out of such temptations. That is the theology I believe in and wonder how anyone could condemn a person who lives his very life trusting God to not let him fall.

2 Peter 1:

5: And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6: And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7: And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8: For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9: But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10: Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Hbr 10:39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

BBob,

 

[menageriekeeper]

Man, ya'll have gone around the world on a question that shouldn't be all that difficult. I'm in the other group in the poll btw.

I understand the issue this way:

Mt 22:37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.Mt 22:38This is the first and great commandment.Mt 22:39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.Mt 22:40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

So being that Christ can't be wrong how can we apply His teaching to our issue of the rightness or wrongness of a particular lie?

Two easy questions suggested by the passage itself are:

1. Will this lie show my love of God and His purposes? (Rahab, the midwives, the lying spirit of Chronicles)

2. Will this lie show love to my neighbor as God defines the word love? (Rahab and the midwives, Corrie ten Boom hiding Jews, not telling your neighbor you hate her little yappy dog even though that is the truth)

The commandment itself does not use the word the word lie, but rather says to "not bear false witness against your neighbor". Perhaps some discussion of why God used different terminology to describe the occurance of "false witness" and "liars" might also shed light on this subject.

 

[Joe]

Man, ya'll have gone around the world on a question that shouldn't be all that difficult. I'm in the other group in the poll btw.

I understand the issue this way:

Mt 22:37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.Mt 22:38This is the first and great commandment.Mt 22:39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.Mt 22:40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

So being that Christ can't be wrong how can we apply His teaching to our issue of the rightness or wrongness of a particular lie?

Two easy questions suggested by the passage itself are:

1. Will this lie show my love of God and His purposes? (Rahab, the midwives, the lying spirit of Chronicles)

2. Will this lie show love to my neighbor as God defines the word love? (Rahab and the midwives, Corrie ten Boom hiding Jews, not telling your neighbor you hate her little yappy dog even though that is the truth)

The commandment itself does not use the word the word lie, but rather says to "not bear false witness against your neighbor". Perhaps some discussion of why God used different terminology to describe the occurance of "false witness" and "liars" might also shed light on this subject.

Really good post MK. :thumbs:
That's the different circumstances I was thinking of, yet couldn't explain it as eloquently as you. To call it a "lie" may be incorrect if it is within god's will so maybe we are debating termanology here. Imo, we agree more than we realize.

 

[TaterTot]

My husband's grandmother has Alzheimers. One day when we were visiting (when she still recognized us) she was very excited about hearing our girls sing to her. She asked where her husband (dead for years) was, that he just had to come hear and seet his. I told her I didnt know, maybe he could see it later. Lie? Yes. Another time she asked her daughter where he was and she was told that he was dead and buried. She grieved again for weeks.

I think my "lie" was ok.

 

[mcdirector]

My husband's grandmother has Alzheimers. One day when we were visiting (when she still recognized us) she was very excited about hearing our girls sing to her. She asked where her husband (dead for years) was, that he just had to come hear and seet his. I told her I didnt know, maybe he could see it later. Lie? Yes. Another time she asked her daughter where he was and she was told that he was dead and buried. She grieved again for weeks.

I think my "lie" was ok.

Oh Tater . . . That is so sad.

 

[PK]

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it]." 1 Cor. 10:13

You must think that this way of escape is through lying?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Do we completely ignore this verse?

Colossians 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

 

[Aaron]

Except the midwives did lie to save the babies.

We use the term lie to designate any untruth put forth as a testimony, but I don't believe the Scriptures share that definition. That's what makes this discussion difficult. The midwives made up some fiction, that's true, but I don't think it's a lie in the sense that the Scriptures condemn lying. There was no guile in this fiction, and it was designed to confound God's enemies and to protect them from the consequences of disobeying an unlawful command. (No king has the authority to command the slaying of innocents, no matter who he thinks he is.) Thus it was not a lie.

 

[Dale-c]

xWe use the term lie to designate any untruth put forth as a testimony, but I don't believe the Scriptures share that definition. That's what makes this discussion difficult. The midwives made up some fiction, that's true, but I don't think it's a lie in the sense that the Scriptures condemn lying. There was no guile in this fiction, and it was designed to confound God's enemies and to protect them from the consequences of disobeying an unlawful command. (No king has the authority to command the slaying of innocents, no matter who he thinks he is.) Thus it was not a lie.

Aaron, I agree completely!

 

[Joe]

We use the term lie to designate any untruth put forth as a testimony, but I don't believe the Scriptures share that definition. That's what makes this discussion difficult. The midwives made up some fiction, that's true, but I don't think it's a lie in the sense that the Scriptures condemn lying. There was no guile in this fiction, and it was designed to confound God's enemies and to protect them from the consequences of disobeying an unlawful command. (No king has the authority to command the slaying of innocents, no matter who he thinks he is.) Thus it was not a lie.

I agree also, thanks

 

[menageriekeeper]

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it]." 1 Cor. 10:13

You must think that this way of escape is through lying?

Do we completely ignore this verse?

Colossians 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

Ya know, there's this whole priesthood of the believer thing that also applies here. Ya'll feel free do/believe exactly what you believe Christ commands you to do. God is perfectly capable of using either or neither of us.

And Standing Firm, I have not ignored anything. Instead I've followed the principal of allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture. I've done so clearly and have yet to see you offer an actual arguement as to why I shouldn't believe as I do. Scripture itself tells us that the entirety of Scripture is good "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness". We can't just snatch out a few verses from one place and say "well it's perfectly clear right here that _____" without also considering what is said about the subject elsewhere in Scripture.

We believe that God doesn't contradict Himself, so just how do you explain God's approval of Rahab and the other examples given? This you've been asked, but have yet to come up with a Scripture based response.

One more thought: Generally when we are given examples of how a person sinned in the Bible, we are also told of his/her repentance or lack thereof. As Rahab, the midwives and even the spirit have no such explanation following their so called sin of lying, can you really prove that God counted it toward them as sin. And if He didn't how can we?

And this principal follows other "sins". Let's think about Tamar. She slept with her father-in-law! <gasp> But what was said about her actions?

 

[Dale-c]

I have posted another thread that deals with a specific situation to lessen the confusion of what I was talking about here.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=46527

 

[Alcott]

The midwives made up some fiction, that's true, but I don't think it's a lie in the sense that the Scriptures condemn lying. There was no guile in this fiction, and it was designed to confound God's enemies and to protect them from the consequences of disobeying an unlawful command.

'Making up some fiction' isn't a lie "in the sense that the scriptures condemn lying?" That's almost a :laugh: :laugh: .

 

[Larry]

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=16210

Posted 9/2000

"Is it ever right to do wrong?"

In another post, ”Right or Wrong by Don”, a question was risen about whether or not it was OK to use deception as a way for getting people to read the Gospel

I would like to expand the topic to "is it ever right to do wrong?"

Please consider:

In Joshua chapter two, we find a prostitute who has lied to the government authorities.

Her deception was later mentioned in the NT

Hebrews 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

James 2:25
Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

Also consider the Sabbath Law. I think that the following verses teach us that there are times when a lesser law is overruled by a grater law.


Luke 14:3-5
And Jesus answering spake unto the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath day?
And they held their peace. And he took [him], and healed him, and let him go;
And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day?

Mark 3:1-5
And he entered again into the synagogue; and there was a man there which had a withered hand.
And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him.
And he saith unto the man which had the withered hand, Stand forth. And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.
And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.


This is an application of the principle, and I would very much like for people to tell me what they would do in the same situation and why.

You are living in Nazi Germany. You have several Jews hidden in you house. The authorities come to the door and ask if you knew where the Jews were hiding.
Do you break one of the Ten Commandments and lie to the SS or do you tell on them?