Is There Such A Thing As A Just War?

[Don]

I was sloppy in the way I worded that. I agree that Jesus would have done something. It just wouldn't have involved killing anyone. I also agree that the Bible supports defending and protecting others. I challenge you to find New Testament scripture that says this can include taking their life.

The theory of just war was not introduced in the Bible. I believe that it was discussed by Cicero and certainly by Thomas Aquinas and Augustine. I suppose you could call it a philosophical or theological argument. I basically accept it but still have some misgivings. When I was younger and facing the possibility of getting drafted to fight in Viet Nam I couldn't understand how a Christian could be anything other than a pacifist. Maybe I should be a Mennonite.

I've met some Mennonites; they have their "factions" just like most other denominations.

Frankly, here's how the situation goes: I would die for you to protect you. But at the same time, I also have to evaluate: simply stepping in front of the bullet would save you at that particular moment, but what's to prevent a second bullet from taking your life as well? Or someone else's? So now I must make the judgment that will protect not only you at this moment, but also in the next few moments.

I'm not advocating "relishing" the taking of another life, and I apologize if I've given that impression. Anyone who takes the life of another, even if it's justified, and then glories in it, needs to take a long, second look at themselves. It's a moment to be regretted, not cherished. We do what's necessary, not because we like it or want to, but because it must be done.

 

[Marcia]

If I may -- how about we say, is one application of it? I'm not too hung up on myself to believe that I have the absolute answers to all of life's questions.

Props to you for that! :laugh:

And that, like your other question, is an excellent question. There are many who would look at WWII, and still wonder if that was a "just war" or not. For example, what threat did Hitler actually pose to America?

Well, we were attacked by Japan and they were allies with Germany.

As for the current conflicts, my reconciliation is my personal experiences with the people of Iraq. In this area, I know that what we're doing is just

Okay.

 

[JustChristian]

I've met some Mennonites; they have their "factions" just like most other denominations.

Frankly, here's how the situation goes: I would die for you to protect you. But at the same time, I also have to evaluate: simply stepping in front of the bullet would save you at that particular moment, but what's to prevent a second bullet from taking your life as well? Or someone else's? So now I must make the judgment that will protect not only you at this moment, but also in the next few moments.

I'm not advocating "relishing" the taking of another life, and I apologize if I've given that impression. Anyone who takes the life of another, even if it's justified, and then glories in it, needs to take a long, second look at themselves. It's a moment to be regretted, not cherished. We do what's necessary, not because we like it or want to, but because it must be done.

The question I've never been able to answer for myself is:

What did Jesus teach that would justify taking the life of another human being? People on the BB have no problem when the question is abortion. But what if the human being is an enemy or non-combatant in war? What if the other person is on death row? Chapter and verse please.

 

[Don]

The question I've never been able to answer for myself is:

What did Jesus teach that would justify taking the life of another human being? People on the BB have no problem when the question is abortion. But what if the human being is an enemy or non-combatant in war? What if the other person is on death row? Chapter and verse please.

Please forgive me, but in order to answer you, I need to ask you some questions for better understanding:

How do you reconcile "love your neighbor" with "love your enemies"? Is it possible or logical to exhibit a greater love for your enemy than you do for your neighbor--i.e., allow an enemy to kill your neighbor, whether through inaction or taking a non-violent approach?

Why do you appear to believe that taking any physical action toward an enemy is wrong or sinful? (in light of the fact that Jesus did take physical actions toward others, as seen in the scripture passage regarding the cleansing of the temple)

If rulers are appointed by God to be wrath unto evil-doers, and a ruler tells you that someone must be executed, is it against God to disobey that ruler?

Thanks, in advance.

 

[JustChristian]

Please forgive me, but in order to answer you, I need to ask you some questions for better understanding:

How do you reconcile "love your neighbor" with "love your enemies"? Is it possible or logical to exhibit a greater love for your enemy than you do for your neighbor--i.e., allow an enemy to kill your neighbor, whether through inaction or taking a non-violent approach?

Why do you appear to believe that taking any physical action toward an enemy is wrong or sinful? (in light of the fact that Jesus did take physical actions toward others, as seen in the scripture passage regarding the cleansing of the temple)

If rulers are appointed by God to be wrath unto evil-doers, and a ruler tells you that someone must be executed, is it against God to disobey that ruler?

Thanks, in advance.

I'm not trying to be flippant but the first question was answered by Jesus:

Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Jesus is saying here that we should treat our enemy in the same way we should treat our neighbor, with christian love.

I emphasized that we should not kill. I didn't mean to say that a good shot in the jaw is unacceptable.

We are told to obey our worldly leaders. However, if they tell us to do something that is against our faith we should not obey. Since I believe that killing is against my faith I would refuse. I came close to having to do that in 1971.

 

[Don]

I'm not trying to be flippant but the first question was answered by Jesus:

Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Jesus is saying here that we should treat our enemy in the same way we should treat our neighbor, with christian love.

Agreed. HOWEVER, if the time comes to choose, which takes greater precedence?

In other words, going back to our sniper scenario, putting yourself in the line of fire means you'll be killed; but then the sniper takes aim and shoots his original target anyway. Then he shoots another. So what love did you exhibit for your neighbor? Did your love for your enemy take priority over your love for your neighbor?
(scripture: Matthew 22:39)

I emphasized that we should not kill. I didn't mean to say that a good shot in the jaw is unacceptable.

Agreed; however, the emphasis on this discussion has been, what about when a good shot to the jaw doesn't stop the threat? Where does the bible advocate that we are to commit suicide in the face of an enemy who has every intention of killing us?

We are told to obey our worldly leaders. However, if they tell us to do something that is against our faith we should not obey. Since I believe that killing is against my faith I would refuse. I came close to having to do that in 1971.

I agree that anyone telling us to do something against our faith must be disobeyed. However, scripture also tells us that we must provide for our families (1 Tim 5:8); that providing necessarily includes protection and security.

We wouldn't think twice about killing a bear who was attacking a member of our family; but we hesitate when it's a human animal exhibiting the same intention and capability.

It gets harder when you know that the person who God has placed over you is a bible-believing, God-fearing person; and they order you to do something that you're not sure is in line with your faith.

 

[Marcia]

In other words, going back to our sniper scenario, putting yourself in the line of fire means you'll be killed; but then the sniper takes aim and shoots his original target anyway. Then he shoots another. So what love did you exhibit for your neighbor? Did your love for your enemy take priority over your love for your neighbor?
(scripture: Matthew 22:39)

I know you are addressing JustChristian, but I do think you make a good point here.

I agree that anyone telling us to do something against our faith must be disobeyed. However, scripture also tells us that we must provide for our families (1 Tim 5:8); that providing necessarily includes protection and security.

We wouldn't think twice about killing a bear who was attacking a member of our family; but we hesitate when it's a human animal exhibiting the same intention and capability.

It gets harder when you know that the person who God has placed over you is a bible-believing, God-fearing person; and they order you to do something that you're not sure is in line with your faith

I think it's much clearer when there is a specific and visible physical threat to a family member or friend, or even person on the street (assuming one would be able to do something - I could only call 911 unless it were my child or sister in which case I would try to be the target; not sure I would do that for anyone else).

However how is this applied in the larger context of war? One can say, yes, we need to go fight in Iraq because it is a threat to our country, but actually, the threat is not that clear and it is disputed. It seems to boil down to politics, power relationships among nations, and subjective feelings and interpretations.

 

[JustChristian]

Agreed. HOWEVER, if the time comes to choose, which takes greater precedence?

In other words, going back to our sniper scenario, putting yourself in the line of fire means you'll be killed; but then the sniper takes aim and shoots his original target anyway. Then he shoots another. So what love did you exhibit for your neighbor? Did your love for your enemy take priority over your love for your neighbor?
(scripture: Matthew 22:39)



Agreed; however, the emphasis on this discussion has been, what about when a good shot to the jaw doesn't stop the threat? Where does the bible advocate that we are to commit suicide in the face of an enemy who has every intention of killing us?



I agree that anyone telling us to do something against our faith must be disobeyed. However, scripture also tells us that we must provide for our families (1 Tim 5:8); that providing necessarily includes protection and security.

We wouldn't think twice about killing a bear who was attacking a member of our family; but we hesitate when it's a human animal exhibiting the same intention and capability.

It gets harder when you know that the person who God has placed over you is a bible-believing, God-fearing person; and they order you to do something that you're not sure is in line with your faith.

The Bible says we should treat them the same. If you're asking me what would I do that is against my faith I hope I wouldn't do anything. I, like all of us, am a poor sinner and therefore cannot say what I would do in defiance of God's word.

 

[Don]

The Bible says we should treat them the same. If you're asking me what would I do that is against my faith I hope I wouldn't do anything. I, like all of us, am a poor sinner and therefore cannot say what I would do in defiance of God's word.

Give it some thought. While we may disagree, I believe God's word tells us to protect others. Again, I don't believe we should revel in the thought of killing others even if it's justified, because it means that I might be killing someone before they have the chance to accept Christ, and therefore condemning them to hell.

However how is this applied in the larger context of war? One can say, yes, we need to go fight in Iraq because it is a threat to our country, but actually, the threat is not that clear and it is disputed. It seems to boil down to politics, power relationships among nations, and subjective feelings and interpretations.

Unfortunately, agreed. How I wish it would be simple and clear, but who's to say what discussions go on behind the closed doors of the White House and the back rooms of Congress, much less the basement of the Pentagon? (not to mention the same areas of other countries)

Let me ask you this: What we publicly know about Iran, with the statements their leader has made regarding Israel, our own country, and Iran's nuclear capability--at what point do we say that they are a clear threat that requires military action?

(my answer: They haven't hit that point yet. We haven't exhausted all diplomatic options yet)

 

[JustChristian]

Give it some thought. While we may disagree, I believe God's word tells us to protect others. Again, I don't believe we should revel in the thought of killing others even if it's justified, because it means that I might be killing someone before they have the chance to accept Christ, and therefore condemning them to hell.



Unfortunately, agreed. How I wish it would be simple and clear, but who's to say what discussions go on behind the closed doors of the White House and the back rooms of Congress, much less the basement of the Pentagon? (not to mention the same areas of other countries)

Let me ask you this: What we publicly know about Iran, with the statements their leader has made regarding Israel, our own country, and Iran's nuclear capability--at what point do we say that they are a clear threat that requires military action?

(my answer: They haven't hit that point yet. We haven't exhausted all diplomatic options yet)

Actually, in practice I think we're pretty close to agreeing. As long as we treat our enemies like our neighbors I wouldn't say we shouldn't protect someone in danger. The situation you're talking about is a triage situation. Either we kill the attacker or the attacker kills their intended victim or us. Someone is going to die.

I'd much rather knock the person out or disable them with a stun gun, etc. than kill them. People need to realize that this is exactly the same situation as an abortion required to save the life of the mother. An extremely difficult situation but maybe the correct moral choice.

 

[Marcia]

How I wish it would be simple and clear, but who's to say what discussions go on behind the closed doors of the White House and the back rooms of Congress, much less the basement of the Pentagon? (not to mention the same areas of other countries)

Let me ask you this: What we publicly know about Iran, with the statements their leader has made regarding Israel, our own country, and Iran's nuclear capability--at what point do we say that they are a clear threat that requires military action?

(my answer: They haven't hit that point yet. We haven't exhausted all diplomatic options yet)

I don't know at what point we say Iran is a clear threat. I think that is the whole problem -- we can't tell usually. Only if we knew they had plans to attack us would it be clear.

 

[blackbird]

I don't know at what point we say Iran is a clear threat. I think that is the whole problem -- we can't tell usually. Only if we knew they had plans to attack us would it be clear.

When our spy satallites and radars pick up the first "blip" of a rocket being launched-------we'll have about 30 minutes to "mobilize" our side----but I'm afraid that the people who find themselves in "target range" won't ever know what hit 'um------

The Iranian government is trigger happy-----and nothing would satisfy their little "peanut" brains than to blow a small portion of the US to "smither-reens!!"-------but I'm looking for the first strike to be against Tel Aviv

 

[Don]

I don't know at what point we say Iran is a clear threat. I think that is the whole problem -- we can't tell usually. Only if we knew they had plans to attack us would it be clear.

What if it's clear that they're going to attack Israel, or another of our allies?

 

[Andy T.]

Jesus is saying here that we should treat our enemy in the same way we should treat our neighbor, with christian love.

No, He is not saying that, and that is probably why you use these verses to justify your moral cowardice. We are not called to love everyone "the same." We are called to love the brethren with a special love. I am called to love my wife with the highest love over all other human beings. Yes, I am still called to love my enemy, but I am not supposed to love them "the same" as I do my wife, family or other believers.

 

[JustChristian]

No, He is not saying that, and that is probably why you use these verses to justify your moral cowardice. We are not called to love everyone "the same." We are called to love the brethren with a special love. I am called to love my wife with the highest love over all other human beings. Yes, I am still called to love my enemy, but I am not supposed to love them "the same" as I do my wife, family or other believers.

My moral cowardice? How do you support that claim. Who's the bigger coward, the man who tries to live at peace and resolve issues with his neighbors as well as his enemies or the guy who a rifle on his gun rack and packs a concealed handgun.

It takes a lot more courage to live a peaceful life than it does to live a violent one constantly ready to gun down your enemies.

I'd say you're the coward. Why not put your faith in Jesus rather than your firearms?

 

[Andy T.]

I don't carry a gun on me, so your characterization is all wrong. Nor do I sit around thinking about how exciting it would be to kill someone. But I also have no qualms about protecting innocent lives, unlike you.

By "moral cowardice" I mean the attempt to justify pacifism through a warped view of Jesus by turning him into a limp-wristed effete, in order to avoid doing the right thing by protecting innocent human life.

And I noticed that you failed to address my point that we are not to love everyone "the same."

 

[Marcia]

When our spy satallites and radars pick up the first "blip" of a rocket being launched-------we'll have about 30 minutes to "mobilize" our side----but I'm afraid that the people who find themselves in "target range" won't ever know what hit 'um------

The Iranian government is trigger happy-----and nothing would satisfy their little "peanut" brains than to blow a small portion of the US to "smither-reens!!"-------but I'm looking for the first strike to be against Tel Aviv

So are we going to go through the whole "weapons of mass destruction" thing again, like before? Remember, Bush said Iraq had these weapons and it came out later that the evidence for this was not there or had been made up. The guy responsible killed himself, didn't he?

 

[Marcia]

What if it's clear that they're going to attack Israel, or another of our allies?

I am still not sure that going to war for allies is okay. These are political allies - they are not necessarily weak and helpless people as in the scenario you gave before of people being attacked.

My feelings on Israel are mixed.

 

[Marcia]

I want to clarify that I am not a pacifist. A pacifist does not believe in using force for attack or for self-defense. I was influenced heavily by pacifism via a Quaker friend in high school, and when I attended Quaker meetings off and on over several years (I was not a believer during these years), but I never became a pacifist though I was anti-war at the time.

My position now is that I am not sure the concept of a just war is biblical today, except if we are directly threatened or attacked.

I do not have a problem with those who disagree. And I do not call those who are fighting in Iraq murderers. I just don't get emotional over this issue for some reason. Maybe I used all that up in my pre-Christian years.

 

[just-want-peace]

Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Bolded mine

My feelings on Israel are mixed.

Not sure what you mean by "mixed", but as the verse above shows it would be to our advantage to "bless" Israel, and I firmly believe that as one of her (Israel's) staunchest allies since her re-birth, God has abundantly blessed this nation.

IIRC, Truman was the 1st leader to recognize Israel as an independent entity after her proclaiming independence in '48. I have no doubt that if we abandon Israel now, we might as well pull the shades and turn out the lights, cause we ain't gonna have squat anymore.

Do we have to agree with everything she does - NO. But just like a wayward child, you don't stop loving, encouraging, supporting, or helping them in the hopes of turning them around.

IOW, we don't abandon them; just like we had better not abandon Israel.