Is Unbelief a sin ?

[Brightfame52]

Unbiblical nonsense. Christ died as a ransom for all. He became the means of reconciliation for the whole of humanity, 1 John 2:2.

All for whom Christ died and ransomed, can never die in unbelief or for any sins. Non of those in 1 Jn 2:2 can ever experience Gods wrath neither, He has had for them His wrath appeased, He is at peace with them, they cant die in unbelief, because thats wrath

 

[Van]

All for whom Christ died and ransomed, can never die in unbelief or for any sins. Non of those in 1 Jn 2:2 can ever experience Gods wrath neither, He has had for them His wrath appeased, He is at peace with them, they cant die in unbelief, because thats wrath

Endless fiction. Christ died as a ransom for all. He became the means of reconciliation for the whole of humanity, 1 John 2:2.

 

[Silverhair]

You are just repeating your position and not addressing my rebuttal. Did I say or suggest a zygote can hold rational thought? No, but you waste time with the absurdity. A person does not have unbelief, they lack belief.

It is unbiblical nonsense to say a person does not believe before he or she believes.

Yes, everybody not saved is condemned. Duh

Van are you now saying you did not post this

Van from post # 39 "Thus, at conception, we are condemned due to unbelief. John 3:18." Ones comes to the position of unbelief through a thought process. How can someone not believe in something they have never heard of? But you think that a zygote can do just that.

You make these comments and then try to run away from them.

All are spiritually separated form God but we are only condemned when we have the ability to understand right from wrong.

You have not even made the attempt to support your view. Now who is the one trying to deflect by avoiding the problem their comments have made?

 

[Van]

Van are you now saying you did not post this

Van from post # 39 "Thus, at conception, we are condemned due to unbelief. John 3:18." Ones comes to the position of unbelief through a thought process. How can someone not believe in something they have never heard of? But you think that a zygote can do just that.

You make these comments and then try to run away from them.

All are spiritually separated form God but we are only condemned when we have the ability to understand right from wrong.

You have not even made the attempt to support your view. Now who is the one trying to deflect by avoiding the problem their comments have made?

You are wasting my time with absurdity. My position is unchanged and crystal clear.

You make up "we are only condemned when have the ability to understand."

When we are conceived, we are condemned already. Why, because we are "made sinners." You deny we are made sinners until we are able to know right from wrong. Nothing in scripture even remotely supports your additions to the text.

 

[Brightfame52]

Endless fiction. Christ died as a ransom for all. He became the means of reconciliation for the whole of humanity, 1 John 2:2.

Its apparent you have no understanding of what it means to be ransomed, that's salvation. Isa 35:10


And the ransomed of the Lord shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

The word ransom here in Isa 35 is the word padah:

To redeem, ransom, rescue
Meaning: to sever, ransom, gener, to release, preserve

Jer 31 11

For the Lord hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he.

And for 1 Tim 2 :6

Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

antilutron:

Ransom, Redemption Price
Meaning: a ransom.
Usage: The term "antilutron" refers to a ransom or price paid for the release of someone held captive. In the New Testament, it is used to describe the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ as the means by which believers are redeemed from sin and its consequences. The concept emphasizes substitutionary atonement, where Christ's death serves as a substitute for the penalty due to sinners.

The ransomed are released from captivity to the devil and become believers

And the ransomed are also called the many by Jesus Matt 20:28

Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

So the all in 1 Tim 2:6 is restricted to the many, all of the many.

So to be ransomed is to be saved and preserved. And anyone knows that doesnt pertain to all mankind

 

[Silverhair]

You are wasting my time with absurdity. My position is unchanged and crystal clear.

You make up "we are only condemned when have the ability to understand."

When we are conceived, we are condemned already. Why, because we are "made sinners." You deny we are made sinners until we are able to know right from wrong. Nothing in scripture even remotely supports your additions to the text.

So your holding to the calvinist philosophical view of all are guilty in Adam. Actually you have them guilty at conception so you go even farther down that road then calvinists do.

So those that cannot actually sin are condemned as if they did sin. Where is the justice in that?

 

[Brightfame52]

See if Christ didn't die for us to deliver us from unbelief, then it would be no hope and no faith in Christ since by nature all of us as sinners are shut up unto unbelief Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.


For God hath shut up all unto disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all. AV

For God hath shut up together all in unbelief, in order that he might shew mercy to all. Darby

It takes the sovereign mercy of God to come out of unbelief 1 Tim 1:13

13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

He obtained Mercy from the Lord

1 Cor 7:25

Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful. 2

 

[Brightfame52]

The fact that God justified the ungodly Rom 4:5 shows that one for whom Christ died is saved from the penalty of their sins, Justified while in unbelief.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 3

 

[Van]

So your holding to the calvinist philosophical view of all are guilty in Adam. Actually you have them guilty at conception so you go even farther down that road then calvinists do.

So those that cannot actually sin are condemned as if they did sin. Where is the justice in that?

It is a waste of effort to try and discuss biblical doctrine with those argue against positions of their own invention. All are "condemned" at conception is the biblical position, not "all are guilty" at conception.

And not the non-stop effort at "name calling" (attempting to brand biblical doctrine as false Calvinist doctrine.)

Recall we were "made sinners" conceived in iniquity, rather than become sinners at the age of accountability. Folks, ask yourselves, which view is biblical, thus found in scripture?

 

[Van]

Is unbelief a sin? Does Going Against the will of God equate with sin? Yes.
Are humans commanded to love God with all our heart mind and soul? Yes
Can a person love a God he does not believe exists or fulfills His promises? No

Did we volitionally sin at conception, because we do not believe in God or His Christ before we have even heard the gospel? No. No because we have done nothing good or bad. But we are in a sinful state, (conceived in iniquity) separated from God as a consequence of Adam's sin. We were made "sinners." And the only way out of that sinful state is for God credit our faith as righteousness. Thus, at conception, we are condemned due to unbelief. John 3:18.

Our lack of belief at conception is a sin as we do not love God with all our heart, mind and soul. But we have not done anything bad, so we are not guilty of Adam's sin, but we are from our start, when God forms our human spirit within us, spiritually separated from God due to our sinful state.






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[Silverhair]

It is a waste of effort to try and discuss biblical doctrine with those argue against positions of their own invention. All are "condemned" at conception is the biblical position, not "all are guilty" at conception.

And not the non-stop effort at "name calling" (attempting to brand biblical doctrine as false Calvinist doctrine.)

Recall we were "made sinners" conceived in iniquity, rather than become sinners at the age of accountability. Folks, ask yourselves, which view is biblical, thus found in scripture?

So by your logic one is condemned before they have even sinned. Is that the justice of God that we see in scripture, NO. The bible says we are condemned for lack of belief.

The fact you have misunderstood scripture does not help your position.

Does Psa 51:5 support your view? Assuredly, it does not.

First of all, it needs to be initially recognized that this passage is Hebrew poetry. And Hebrew poetry abounds with bold and imaginative figures of speech; it is frequently characterized by a freedom which departs from customary forms of expression. It is, therefore, a mistake of great magnitude to extract statements from poetical literature and thus employ them as a foundation for doctrinal schemes.

Secondly, one of the primary rules of Biblical interpretation suggests: “The language of Scripture may be regarded as figurative, if the literal interpretation will cause one passage to contradict another”
There are numerous Bible verses, in plain, literal language, that affirm the innocence of infants, and Psa_51:5 must not be arrayed against these. Consider the following:

(1) Scripture plainly teaches that sin is not inherited. “the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father” (Eze_18:20); every person is responsible for his own conduct (Rom_14:12).

(2) Human sinfulness commences in that period of one’s life that is characterized as youth (Gen_8:21; Jer_3:25).

(3) A child must reach a certain level of maturity before he is able to choose between evil and good (Isa_7:15-16).

(4) The qualities of little children are set forth as models for those who would aspire to enter the kingdom (Mat_18:3; Mat_19:14) and for those already in the church (1Co_14:20). Surely the Lord was not suggesting that we emulate little, totally corrupt sinners!

(5) The human spirit is not inherited from one’s parents; rather, it is given by God (Ecc_12:7; Heb_12:9). Hence, at birth it must be as pure as the source from whence it comes.

Clearly, babies are not born in sin.


Those who employ Psa_51:5 to buttress the doctrine that sin is inherited from one’s mother are faced with a serious problem. Jesus was both conceived by and brought forth from a human mother (Luk_1:31). If original sin is inherited from one’s mother, Christ had it. If, however, someone should suggest that depravity is received only from the father, Psa_51:5 cannot be used to prove it, for it mentions only the mother.

 

[Brightfame52]

God has mercy on some for their unbelief. In Rom 11 its seen that some Gentiles received mercy even in unbelief Rom 11:30-31

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

And some jews who are in unbelief obtain mercy as well:

31 Even so have these[jews] also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

Some People from amongest the Gentiles and Jews who are unbelievers, will inspite of it, obtain mercy from God. These are the vessels of mercy Paul speaks of in Rom 9:23-4

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

See unbelief wont stop God from having mercy upon these and regenerate them and give them faith Titus 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Vessels of Mercy can never be condemned for, nor die in unbelief !

 

[Van]

The fact you have misunderstood scripture does not help your position.

Does Psa 51:5 support your view? Assuredly, it does not.

First of all, it needs to be initially recognized that this passage is Hebrew poetry. And Hebrew poetry abounds with bold and imaginative figures of speech; it is frequently characterized by a freedom which departs from customary forms of expression. It is, therefore, a mistake of great magnitude to extract statements from poetical literature and thus employ them as a foundation for doctrinal schemes.

Secondly, one of the primary rules of Biblical interpretation suggests: “The language of Scripture may be regarded as figurative, if the literal interpretation will cause one passage to contradict another”
There are numerous Bible verses, in plain, literal language, that affirm the innocence of infants, and Psa_51:5 must not be arrayed against these. Consider the following:

(1) Scripture plainly teaches that sin is not inherited. “the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father” (Eze_18:20); every person is responsible for his own conduct (Rom_14:12).

(2) Human sinfulness commences in that period of one’s life that is characterized as youth (Gen_8:21; Jer_3:25).

(3) A child must reach a certain level of maturity before he is able to choose between evil and good (Isa_7:15-16).

(4) The qualities of little children are set forth as models for those who would aspire to enter the kingdom (Mat_18:3; Mat_19:14) and for those already in the church (1Co_14:20). Surely the Lord was not suggesting that we emulate little, totally corrupt sinners!

(5) The human spirit is not inherited from one’s parents; rather, it is given by God (Ecc_12:7; Heb_12:9). Hence, at birth it must be as pure as the source from whence it comes.

Clearly, babies are not born in sin.


Those who employ Psa_51:5 to buttress the doctrine that sin is inherited from one’s mother are faced with a serious problem. Jesus was both conceived by and brought forth from a human mother (Luk_1:31). If original sin is inherited from one’s mother, Christ had it. If, however, someone should suggest that depravity is received only from the father, Psa_51:5 cannot be used to prove it, for it mentions only the mother.

"So by your logic one is condemned before they have even sinned. Is that the justice of God that we see in scripture, NO. The bible says we are condemned for lack of belief."

This claim, scripture does not mean what it says, because it is inconsistent with my view of God's attributes, is an example of nullification, of tradition making God's word to no effect.

The Hebrew word translated usually as "iniquity" in Psalm 51:5 refers to being conceived in a sinful state, and with a depraved nature, rather than being guilty because babies in the womb had done nothing bad.

The claim Psalm 51:5 does not mean what it says because it is poetry with figures of speech is nonsense.

No one said or suggested "sin" is inherited. However the consequence of sin affects others, recall visiting the sins of the father on subsequent generations.

Every person is responsible for their own conduct, but not for their initial condition, depraved and separated from God.

I agree with the doctrine of an age of accountability, some people die before they become accountable. But they started out depraved and in a sinful separated from God state, and only belief in Christ provides the means of redemption when and if God credits that faith as righteousness.

The illustration of being like little children, refers to trusting fully and without reservation in Christ.

Again, no one said our human spirit was inherited from our parents, scripture says God forms our human spirit within us.

Clearly babies are conceived in a fallen state, i.e. made sinners, with a depraved or fallen nature.

No one said we were made sinners because of our mother's sin, scripture clearly says it was because of Adam's sin, alone.

 

[Silverhair]

"So by your logic one is condemned before they have even sinned. Is that the justice of God that we see in scripture, NO. The bible says we are condemned for lack of belief."

This claim, scripture does not mean what it says, because it is inconsistent with my view of God's attributes, is an example of nullification, of tradition making God's word to no effect.

The Hebrew word translated usually as "iniquity" in Psalm 51:5 refers to being conceived in a sinful state, and with a depraved nature, rather than being guilty because babies in the womb had done nothing bad.

The claim Psalm 51:5 does not mean what it says because it is poetry with figures of speech is nonsense.

No one said or suggested "sin" is inherited. However the consequence of sin affects others, recall visiting the sins of the father on subsequent generations.

Every person is responsible for their own conduct, but not for their initial condition, depraved and separated from God.

I agree with the doctrine of an age of accountability, some people die before they become accountable. But they started out depraved and in a sinful separated from God state, and only belief in Christ provides the means of redemption when and if God credits that faith as righteousness.

The illustration of being like little children, refers to trusting fully and without reservation in Christ.

Again, no one said our human spirit was inherited from our parents, scripture says God forms our human spirit within us.

Clearly babies are conceived in a fallen state, i.e. made sinners, with a depraved or fallen nature.

No one said we were made sinners because of our mother's sin, scripture clearly says it was because of Adam's sin, alone.

We are not made sinners at conception as that would mean that those infants that die would all be condemned to hell as they could not have trusted in God.

We are all born separated from God and will all die as a result of Adam's sin. We are condemned to hell for our own sins not Adam's.

By your view then even Christ was conceived as a sinner as He would have been born a son of Adam through Mary.

Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
Gal 4:5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

 

[Brightfame52]

So the elect from amongst the jews and gentiles, for their unbelief, they obtain mercy Rom 11:30-32

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all[elect jew/gentile] in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Paul was one of the elect jews who through his unbelief obtained mercy 1 Tim 1:12-13

12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;

13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

See God could have condemned Paul to hell while unbelief as He Justly does to others Rom 11:20

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Jn 3:18

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

So clearly all are not cut off, rejected of God because of their unbelief ! Some obtain mercy instead of Justice !

 

[Van]

We are not made sinners at conception as that would mean that those infants that die would all be condemned to hell as they could not have trusted in God.

We are all born separated from God and will all die as a result of Adam's sin. We are condemned to hell for our own sins not Adam's.

By your view then even Christ was conceived as a sinner as He would have been born a son of Adam through Mary.

Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
Gal 4:5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

We should stop attempting to discuss this doctrine. You cannot even present my view and discuss it, but instead post absurdity and ascribe it to me.

Did I say "condemned" or "condemned to Hades and Gehenna?" Does scripture say "condemned" or "condemned to Hades and Gehenna?"

You are just wasting everyone's time with off topic false charges!

Did I say Christ was made a sinner? Nope, yet you say my view is Christ was conceived a sinner. Off topic falsehood.

Final point:

God sent His Son, "to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive as children of God our full rights of inheritance.

 

[Silverhair]

We should stop attempting to discuss this doctrine. You cannot even present my view and discuss it, but instead post absurdity and ascribe it to me.

Did I say "condemned" or "condemned to Hades and Gehenna?" Does scripture say "condemned" or "condemned to Hades and Gehenna?"

You are just wasting everyone's time with off topic false charges!

Did I say Christ was made a sinner? Nope, yet you say my view is Christ was conceived a sinner. Off topic falsehood.

Final point:

God sent His Son, "to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive as children of God our full rights of inheritance.

@Van why do you make those fool comments and then say any response that shows your error is off topic. Are we just to accept your twisted views?

The outcome of your position leads to what you do not seem able to grasp.

 

[Saved421]

So, Psalm's verse is about a baby formed in a sinful woman's belly not the child.

 

[Van]

@Van why do you make those fool comments and then say any response that shows your error is off topic. Are we just to accept your twisted views?

The outcome of your position leads to what you do not seem able to grasp.

Note, the poster's comments are all about me, and nothing about the topic. Nuff said

 

[Silverhair]

Note, the poster's comments are all about me, and nothing about the topic. Nuff said

To discuss doctrine you have to be willing to look at what the text actually says. Something that you do not want to do.

You have stated your view and when I disagree with your view you say it is a deflection. Think through what you have said and what the biblical text says.

Your idea of discussion is that we are all to agree with your view despite what the text shows.

So yes this post is just about you Van and your inability to address comments that point out the error of your views.