Israel and the Fig Tree

[robycop3]

You are contradicting Jesus' description of the kingdom being spiritual only. And I must ask, are you adding to Revelation by forcing a physical kingdom into Revelation 20?

MMRRPP ! WRONG !

I'm not forcing nor adding ANYTHING into Revelation; however, YOU ARE DENYING what's in it, & in other Scriptures.

First, let's showya Jesus will physically return:
Acts 1:11 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

How did He go? He simply ASCENDED, physically, visibly. And the Greek here means "in the same way", but not necessarily EXACTLY. So, when He returns, He will be seated upon a horse.

Now, we see Jesus has returned TO THE EARTH, SO, WHAT WILL HAPPEN NEXT?

Rev. 19: 19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

Now, we know the beast will be on earth, and so will the kings of the earth, & their armies. How could they make war against Jesus if He wasn't on earth?
So, after He destroys those armies & casts the beast & FP into the lake of fire, what happens next ? First, Satan is cast into "the abyss' for 1K years, then:
Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Is a thousand years a millenium or not?

And then ?

Rev. 20:7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

There, plain as day, is the **PROOF** that Jesus will bring the physical KOG to EARTH, & He& it will reign over THE EARTH for 1k years, til Satan is freed & stirs up rebellion again. And then comes the Great White Throne judgment.

So, Dave, you can deny all you like, but I, & likely everyone else here, will believe SCRIPTURE over your silly guesswork & imagination. How you can claim to be a Christian while denying such plain, obvious Scripture is beyond me ! !

 

[Covenanter]

Alan Gross said: ↑
Roy,

Thanks for your question.

I was trying to help you understand 'what to make of this Prophecy'.

There are 56 major points ~ just picking some number ~ that haven't been talked about or resolved in the entire chapter, but they can be.

Like a hand in a glove.

]Thank you for all of your input, Alan. There is a lot to read and ponder in all that you posted.

God be With You Sir

Hi Roy, you will have realised by now that there are a number of lines of interpretation of prophecy each held by competent Bible scholars. But there is a correct interpretation!

Start with Luke 24 -

19 “What things?” he asked.
“About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. 20 The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; 21 but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel........
......
25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.
......
44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”
​

By his atoning sacrifice & resurrection, Jesus fulfilled Old Covenant prophecy concerning himself. Should we look for unfulfilled OC prophecy concerning the nation of Israel, when Jesus declares his Gospel for all nations, beginning at Jerusalem?

The temple veil was torn from top to bottom at his shout of "FINISHED." Should we expect a future temple including sacrifices for sin according to Ezekiel's prophecy?

The blessing of salvation for all nations is according to the promises to the Patriarchs. Should we expect a future fulfilment localised for his physical descendants?

Gen. 12:2 “I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you;
I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.”

Gal. 3:26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

1 Peter 2:4 As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
.....
9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.​

Compare 1 Peter 2:9 with God's promise in Exodus 19 -

5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”​

This is the present experience of God's redeemed people - members of his Church of believers in our Lord Jesus Christ.

So we seek to serve him & look for his return from Heaven for resurrection & judgment, and to bring into being the New Heaven & New Earth.

 

[1689Dave]

MMRRPP ! WRONG !

I'm not forcing nor adding ANYTHING into Revelation; however, YOU ARE DENYING what's in it, & in other Scriptures.

First, let's showya Jesus will physically return:
Acts 1:11 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

How did He go? He simply ASCENDED, physically, visibly. And the Greek here means "in the same way", but not necessarily EXACTLY. So, when He returns, He will be seated upon a horse.

Now, we see Jesus has returned TO THE EARTH, SO, WHAT WILL HAPPEN NEXT?

Rev. 19: 19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

Now, we know the beast will be on earth, and so will the kings of the earth, & their armies. How could they make war against Jesus if He wasn't on earth?
So, after He destroys those armies & casts the beast & FP into the lake of fire, what happens next ? First, Satan is cast into "the abyss' for 1K years, then:
Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Is a thousand years a millenium or not?

And then ?

Rev. 20:7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

There, plain as day, is the **PROOF** that Jesus will bring the physical KOG to EARTH, & He& it will reign over THE EARTH for 1k years, til Satan is freed & stirs up rebellion again. And then comes the Great White Throne judgment.

So, Dave, you can deny all you like, but I, & likely everyone else here, will believe SCRIPTURE over your silly guesswork & imagination. How you can claim to be a Christian while denying such plain, obvious Scripture is beyond me ! !

The millennium is a Pharisee's doctrine that Jesus refuted throughout the gospels. When he returns it will be earth's last day. The resurrection of the dead followed by the rapture, followed by the destruction of the heavens and earth by fire. And this ushering in the New Heavens and earth. Jesus will return in the same manner that he ascended Acts 1:11

 

[1689Dave]

Really?

You actually have proof of Christ refuting the very words He gave such prophets as Ezekiel?

What of that final temple that no previous temple dimensions fit?

There is NO temple in the new earth and heaven, so when did Ezekiel get it wrong?

Seems you are the one who are “Christianizing” rather than taking statement of Scripture as literal as possible.

Do you not completely bring dispute upon the whole when you, as Thomas Jefferson did with a pen knife, cut out that which you don’t happen to agree.

The millennium is based on the Pharisee's understanding of the Talmud and the OT. Jesus taught against this.

 

[Covenanter]

Mark 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: 29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. 30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Many Bible scholars use the above scripture as proof positive that our Lord will return within a generation of the year 1948, the year of modern Israel's founding. I am not sure exactly just how many years are in a generation, but we are now 71 years past 1948.

Could the years of a generation possibly be 120 years, based on God's word to Noah following the flood? Also, are scholars correct in assuming that the Lord will return within a generation of the founding of modern-day Israel?

Jesus, in his Olivet prophecy, is warning of the destruction of the temple & Jerusalem that took place in AD 70. That took place before the generation that rejected him had died out. Jesus gave a number of events that were not warning signs, & other events that were signs that believers should flee the city before its destruction.

He went on the warn of a final passing of heaven & earth that would take place without any further warning. I consider that the paragraph break should separate vs 30 & 31. The rest of the chapter tells us - everyone - how to live with an awareness of his final coming.

32 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Be on guard! Be alert & pray! You do not know when that time will come.34 It’s like a man going away: He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with their assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch.
35 “Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn.36 If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. 37 What I say to you, I say to everyone: ‘Watch!’ ”​

Thus we have in effect 2 comings of the Lord Jesus, first for judgment of the generation that rejected him, that took place in AD 70 veiled by clouds, then a final coming for resurrection & judgment & the NH&NE.

I must repeat what I wrote earlier, that the Jews of Jesus' time, first century Jews were NOT rejected by their God. Thousands received John's baptism & followed Jesus, thousands heard Jesus gladly & thousands welcomed him into Jerusalem with shouts of "Hosanna!" Although a crowd called for his crucifixion, & called a curse on them selves, at Pentecost that curse was cancelled with a call to repent, be baptised in the name of Jesus.

Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”​

Thousands more welcomed that Gospel call. Jews & Proselytes from every nation under heaven. Wherever the Apostles went to preach, they began in the synagogues. The first century church initially comprised Jews & Proselytes & soon added Gentiles without circumcision.

 

[Alan Gross]

Hi Roy, you will have realised by now that there are a number of lines of interpretation of prophecy each held by competent Bible scholars. But there is a correct interpretation!

Start with Luke 24 -

19 “What things?” he asked.
“About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. 20 The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; 21 but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel........
......
25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.
......
44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”
​

By his atoning sacrifice & resurrection, Jesus fulfilled Old Covenant prophecy concerning himself. Should we look for unfulfilled OC prophecy concerning the nation of Israel, when Jesus declares his Gospel for all nations, beginning at Jerusalem?

The temple veil was torn from top to bottom at his shout of "FINISHED." Should we expect a future temple including sacrifices for sin according to Ezekiel's prophecy?

The blessing of salvation for all nations is according to the promises to the Patriarchs. Should we expect a future fulfilment localised for his physical descendants?

Gen. 12:2 “I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you;
I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.”

Gal. 3:26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

1 Peter 2:4 As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
.....
9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.​

Compare 1 Peter 2:9 with God's promise in Exodus 19 -

5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”​

This is the present experience of God's redeemed people - members of his Church of believers in our Lord Jesus Christ.

So we seek to serve him & look for his return from Heaven for resurrection & judgment, and to bring into being the New Heaven & New Earth.

Yes, and this position is Taught in every verse of The Bible.

The 'starting-point', or premise for Interpretation, and actually, Divine Interpretation* is to begin with straightforward Teaching Passages.

Conversely, 'starting' with the very last 3 Chapters of The Bible that are Disclosed by God to be 'signified', or 'encrypted', per say, will send folks 'jumping on their horse and riding off in all directions'.

Then, with this Passage regarding The Fig Tree, the next Herminutical Principal might be to read closely, TO SEE FOR YOURSELF, IN THE BIBLE, such things as that it is Not Referring to an 'Olive Tree'.

Since, The Fig Tree in Mark 13 and The Olive Tree in Roman's 11 both have 'branches', that is enough for some 'commentators', and/or 'author' - 'celebs', to get some bright idea about 'Israel will be restored and so Jesus is Coming, by our calender reckoning of a vauge generation time table, alarm clock setting'.

That is simply not the case.

The Fig Tree is a Fig Tree.

Israel is nowhere to be found in this Parable of The Fig Tree.

That Parable Teaching what Jesus was Talking about.

When those people see Roman Armies gathering around Jerusalem, they are going to be looking for gold hidden in the stones of the Temple and that is The sign of Jesus Coming in Providential Judgment on the Jews.

They better know they better head out, because "where the carcus IS" (The Judgment upon the Jews in Jerusalem, 70 A. D, & The Death of The Jewish Economy of Temple Worship) "there shall the EAGLES" ( The Roman Army) "be gathered TOGETHER", at The Desolation of Abomination spoken of by Daniel.

...
* "Divine Interpretation" goes like this, " the candlesticks are the seven churches".

When people talk about things being 'plain', that may very well mean, "THE REFERENCE BIBLE NOTES JUMPED RIGHT UP AND TOLD ME"... so and so.......

Great...

God Teaches His people with The Holy Spirit.

That exact thing could be the cause of much unmitigated fantasy, regarding The Bible (and is... let's say that).

The flesh.

That which is flesh is flesh.

Watch this: you realize that when a baby is born, there is what is called, the water breaking', during that very common, natural childbirth process.

Are we cool, here?

Now, watch: Unless, a man be born that way........

What way?

"of water"

When a baby is born, there is what is called, 'the water breaking', during that very common, natural childbirth process.

And my point is?

And we are 'watching' for what?

DIVINE INTERPRETATION.

JESUS Said, that unless a baby is born, by the natural childbirth process,

"of water".....

STOP.

'Natural childbirth involving the breaking of water'

IS THE DIVINE INTERPRETATION of,

"unless a man be born of water"....

That... Is... It.....

Anyone coming up with anything else may think it is plain to their natural born flesh, but when they are ALSO Born of The Spirit, Jesus can show His child 'the clincher', like that.

 

[Alan Gross]

The millennium is a Pharisee's doctrine that Jesus refuted throughout the gospels. When he returns it will be earth's last day. The resurrection of the dead followed by the rapture, followed by the destruction of the heavens and earth by fire. And this ushering in the New Heavens and earth. Jesus will return in the same manner that he ascended Acts 1:11

1.0.3b The Gospel of The Kingdom #1; 20th Century ‘Dispensationalism’ is practically identical to LOST 1st Century JEWS who CRUCIFIED JESUS

 

[Alan Gross]

"Is a thousand years a millenium or not?"

"a thousand years' is 'a thousand years'.

Compartmentalizing a Bible Teaching into some other 'name' needs to have merit.

No merit can be given to a new man-made addition to the text of the English translation, from the Greek, that is misleading, in error, false, and NOT A VALID TRANSLATION, at all.

"a thousand years".

Every other number in The Book of Revelation is symbolic and emblematic, in accordance to God Having "signified" His Unveiling, to John.

5507 xílioi – properly, a thousand; the product of 10 x 10 x 10 (103, ten cubed); (figuratively) emphatic, total inclusiveness, showing no one (nothing) is left out

....

["Ten" in Scripture can already express the symbolic meaning "completely" (inclusively) so 5507 (xílioi) as the cubeof 10 ("a thousand") powerfully stresses the meaning "full/inclusive" (totality).]

When people are in THE LAST THREE CHAPTERS of THE ENTIRE BIBLE, they should be expected to be familiar with some other Bible Teachings, before they read, "a thousand years", and can understand that as a number, from reading it, AND THEN THINK THEY KNOW EVERYTHING IN THE BIBLE ENOUGH TO CHANGE IT AND ADD TO IT.

Stupid.

That is stupid.

I don't care what Commentator that paints.

"a thousand years" is mentioned the number of man, I'll give you that.

6 times in Revelation 20.

No matter how many Periods of History there could be between Jesus' First and Second Comings, "man" is helpless without God.

Does "a thousand years" indicate "a thousand years", literally, by letterism, ignoring the Apostalic Literary Genre of the Book of Revelation, in accordance with reading LITERATURE?

Of course, not.

Every other number in The Book of Revelation is symbolic and emblematic, in accordance to God Having "signified" His Unveiling, to John.

 

[MB]

The millennium is a Pharisee's doctrine that Jesus refuted throughout the gospels. When he returns it will be earth's last day. The resurrection of the dead followed by the rapture, followed by the destruction of the heavens and earth by fire. And this ushering in the New Heavens and earth. Jesus will return in the same manner that he ascended Acts 1:11

So John was a Pharisee?.. Just where is the refute that Jesus made against the Millennium? Still making up your own doctrine I see.
MB

 

[Alan Gross]

So John was a Pharisee?.. Just where is the refute that Jesus made against the Millennium? Still making up your own doctrine I see.
MB

Run that "Millenium" Passage by us, again.

The one you are defending.

As if a 'Millenium' is relavant to any discussion of The Bible.

Where did you come up with that word?

 

[robycop3]

The millennium is a Pharisee's doctrine that Jesus refuted throughout the gospels. When he returns it will be earth's last day. The resurrection of the dead followed by the rapture, followed by the destruction of the heavens and earth by fire. And this ushering in the New Heavens and earth. Jesus will return in the same manner that he ascended Acts 1:11

Sir, I just showed you that SCRIPTURE says otherwise. You're not disagreeing with me; you're disagreeing with GOD'S WORD !

 

[Alan Gross]

Sir, I just showed you that SCRIPTURE says otherwise. You're not disagreeing with me; you're disagreeing with GOD'S WORD !

You showed Scriptures and told a story that they do not Teach.

The story and the Words Written have no relationship to each other.

The Words Written relate to the remainder of Revelation, and The New Testament, and all of The Old Testament.

The story you are telling is not stated there, nor anywhere else in The Bible.

It does contain a few other gospels, though.

Jesus Coming Back to Talk to lost souls, Personally.

Why bother talking to them, now?

You want to let Jesus Do it?

It's over when Jesus Comes Back.

That's His Story everywhere in The Bible.

 

[Covenanter]

28Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: 29So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. 30Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. 31Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Many Bible scholars use the above scripture as proof positive that our Lord will return within a generation of the year 1948, the year of modern Israel's founding. I am not sure exactly just how many years are in a generation, but we are now 71 years past 1948.

Could the years of a generation possibly be 120 years, based on God's word to Noah following the flood? Also, are scholars correct in assuming that the Lord will return within a generation of the founding of modern-day Israel?

Do the Epistles teach a restoration of the kingdom of Israel in the land promised to Abraham? Nowhere has been suggested other than Romans 11.

Either Paul, in writing Romans 11, is stating facts concerning national political Israel in which he served in the interest of the temple rulers as Saul, or Paul was delusional perhaps as the result of the many beatings and deprivations he endured.

Are you really going to attempt to present Romans 2 as discrediting Romans 11 that clearly declares God most certainly has a plan for national/political Israel? Was this not exactly the question Paul presented in the opening verses of Romans 11?

There is a single Biblically accepted view of the future. It is that found from chapter 19 and following in Revelation.

Romans 11 says NOTHING about "a plan for national/political Israel." Considering Rom. 11 with Rom. 2, it is clear that in context "all Israel" comprises all the redeemed people of God, saved Gentiles together with saved Jews.

25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”​

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[fn] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.​

Paul writes of salvation for Israel. He quotes Isaiah & Jeremiah promising the delivery, the Messiah, and the (new) covenant & taking away of sins. Not a restored earthly kingdom.

The quotation from the prophets is in the future tense because Paul is quoting what they wrote, not because the Messiah's coming to Zion to turn godlessness from Jacob is future to Paul. Jesus came! Jesus fulfilled the saving work prophesied.

 

[1689Dave]

Sir, I just showed you that SCRIPTURE says otherwise. You're not disagreeing with me; you're disagreeing with GOD'S WORD !

You are interpreting scripture similar to what the Pharisees do. Jesus refuted their physical kingdom ideas proving the kingdom is spiritual only.

Please consider the spiritual nature of the Kingdom:

“And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matthew 3:2) (KJV 1900)

“And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.” (Matthew 11:12) (KJV 1900)

“Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” (Matthew 16:28) (KJV 1900)

“Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” (1 Corinthians 15:50)

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3) (KJV 1900)

“Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)

“Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.” (John 18:36) (KJV 1900)

“And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:” (Luke 17:20) (KJV 1900)

“Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:21) (KJV 1900)

“But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has already overtaken you.” (Luke 11:20)

“because we are not looking at what can be seen but at what cannot be seen. For what can be seen is temporary, but what cannot be seen is eternal.” (2 Corinthians 4:18)

“Now when the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus performed, they began to say to one another, “This is certainly the Prophet who is to come into the world.” Then Jesus, because he knew they were going to come and seize him by force to make him king, withdrew again up the mountainside alone.” (John 6:14–15)

“He delivered us from the power of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of the Son he loves,” (Colossians 1:13)

“When Jesus saw that he answered intelligently, He said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And no one dared to question Him any longer.” (Mark 12:34) (HCSB)

“for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.” (Romans 14:17) (HCSB)

 

[Alan Gross]

Do the Epistles teach a restoration of the kingdom of Israel in the land promised to Abraham? Nowhere has been suggested other than Romans 11.



Romans 11 says NOTHING about "a plan for national/political Israel." Considering Rom. 11 with Rom. 2, it is clear that in context "all Israel" comprises all the redeemed people of God, saved Gentiles together with saved Jews.

25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”​

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[fn] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.​

Paul writes of salvation for Israel. He quotes Isaiah & Jeremiah promising the delivery, the Messiah, and the (new) covenant & taking away of sins. Not a restored earthly kingdom.

The quotation from the prophets is in the future tense because Paul is quoting what they wrote, not because the Messiah's coming to Zion to turn godlessness from Jacob is future to Paul. Jesus came! Jesus fulfilled the saving work prophesied.

Yes sir, something has to GIVE.

"Not all Israel is Israel"

but,

"all Israel will be saved."

 

[robycop3]

You showed Scriptures and told a story that they do not Teach.

The story and the Words Written have no relationship to each other.

The Words Written relate to the remainder of Revelation, and The New Testament, and all of The Old Testament.

The story you are telling is not stated there, nor anywhere else in The Bible.

It does contain a few other gospels, though.

Jesus Coming Back to Talk to lost souls, Personally.

Why bother talking to them, now?

You want to let Jesus Do it?

It's over when Jesus Comes Back.

That's His Story everywhere in The Bible.

What a wild idea !

The Scriptures I cited are in everyone's Bible, so it's easy to read them & the surrounding verses to see who's presenting FACTS here. It aint you or Dave !

 

[1689Dave]

What a wild idea !

The Scriptures I cited are in everyone's Bible, so it's easy to read them & the surrounding verses to see who's presenting FACTS here. It aint you or Dave !

You are looking for a kingdom of sight. The kingdom of God is a kingdom of faith. Only the born again can see the kingdom of God.

“Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”” John 3:3 (NASB95)

 

[Alan Gross]

What a wild idea !

The Scriptures I cited are in everyone's Bible, so it's easy to read them & the surrounding verses to see who's presenting FACTS here. It aint you or Dave !

Yep, the Apocalyptic Literary Genre "are in everyone's Bible".

"of or resembling the biblical "apocalyptic imagery", from Oxford.

https://www.google.com/search?q=apo...rome..69i57.6515j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

So, is the first verse;

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"

sémainó: to give a sign
Original Word: σημαίνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: sémainó
Phonetic Spelling: (say-mah'-ee-no)
Definition: to give a sign
Usage: I signify, indicate, give a sign, make known.

Dean Davis had some introductory thoughts on:

The Kingdom of God appears in two simple stages—
the Kingdom of the Son
(i.e., the CURRENT Heavenly,
Mediatorial Reign of Jesus Christ,
until the SECOND COMING of Jesus Christ
at The END of THIS PRESENT WORLD)

followed by the Kingdom of the Father
(i.e., the Glorified World to Come,
after the SECOND COMING of Jesus Christ
at The END of THIS PRESENT WORLD)—

(we realized that the "thousand years" spoken of in Revelation 20 cannot be a third, intermediate stage of the Kingdom sandwiched between the other two, as premillennarians assert.)

Similarly, having learned
that the two stages of the Kingdom are separated by a Single END of THIS PRESENT WORLD,
at the SECOND COMING of Jesus Christ,
we realized that the END of THIS PRESENT WORLD

cannot be fragmented into multiple comings, resurrections, and judgments, as premillennarians also assert.

In short, our study of the Kingdom has gone far towards resolving the End Time Debate in favor of the classic view of The Current Reign of Jesus Christ from Heaven, by God the Holy Spirit, in the Present Age, within All of Salvation History.

It remains, however, for us to probe Revelation 20 itself.
If it does not describe “a future millennial reign of Christ on earth”, what exactly does it describe?

…

If, as I have suggested along the way, it speaks of the Kingdom of the Son and Jesus’ CURRENT Heavenly, Mediatorial Reign, until the SECOND COMING of Jesus Christ at The END of THIS PRESENT WORLD,

is there anything in the Revelation broadly, or in Revelation 20 itself, to support this view?

Our purpose is to find out.

Let us begin, then, by getting a feel for the Revelation as a whole. In particular, let's see if there is anything in the Purpose, Literary Genre, and Structure of the Book of REVELATION that will help us better understand what is spoken of as the “Millennium”, from the actual wording which says, “a thousand years”, in Revelation 20."

...

If anyone Loves God enough to want to know.

Love is the issue.




...

 

[robycop3]

You are interpreting scripture similar to what the Pharisees do. Jesus refuted their physical kingdom ideas proving the kingdom is spiritual only.

Please consider the spiritual nature of the Kingdom:

“And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matthew 3:2) (KJV 1900)

“And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.” (Matthew 11:12) (KJV 1900)

“Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” (Matthew 16:28) (KJV 1900)

“Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” (1 Corinthians 15:50)

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3) (KJV 1900)

“Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)

“Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.” (John 18:36) (KJV 1900)

“And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:” (Luke 17:20) (KJV 1900)

“Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:21) (KJV 1900)

“But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has already overtaken you.” (Luke 11:20)

“because we are not looking at what can be seen but at what cannot be seen. For what can be seen is temporary, but what cannot be seen is eternal.” (2 Corinthians 4:18)

“Now when the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus performed, they began to say to one another, “This is certainly the Prophet who is to come into the world.” Then Jesus, because he knew they were going to come and seize him by force to make him king, withdrew again up the mountainside alone.” (John 6:14–15)

“He delivered us from the power of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of the Son he loves,” (Colossians 1:13)

“When Jesus saw that he answered intelligently, He said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And no one dared to question Him any longer.” (Mark 12:34) (HCSB)

“for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.” (Romans 14:17) (HCSB)

You just won't learn. Whoever told you the fairy tale you've been posting is an apostate liar, & you still swallow his/her line.

 

[robycop3]

Yep, the Apocalyptic Literary Genre "are in everyone's Bible".

"of or resembling the biblical "apocalyptic imagery", from Oxford.

https://www.google.com/search?q=apo...rome..69i57.6515j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

So, is the first verse;

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"

sémainó: to give a sign
Original Word: σημαίνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: sémainó
Phonetic Spelling: (say-mah'-ee-no)
Definition: to give a sign
Usage: I signify, indicate, give a sign, make known.

Dean Davis had some introductory thoughts on:

The Kingdom of God appears in two simple stages—
the Kingdom of the Son
(i.e., the CURRENT Heavenly,
Mediatorial Reign of Jesus Christ,
until the SECOND COMING of Jesus Christ
at The END of THIS PRESENT WORLD)

followed by the Kingdom of the Father
(i.e., the Glorified World to Come,
after the SECOND COMING of Jesus Christ
at The END of THIS PRESENT WORLD)—

(we realized that the "thousand years" spoken of in Revelation 20 cannot be a third, intermediate stage of the Kingdom sandwiched between the other two, as premillennarians assert.)

Similarly, having learned
that the two stages of the Kingdom are separated by a Single END of THIS PRESENT WORLD,
at the SECOND COMING of Jesus Christ,
we realized that the END of THIS PRESENT WORLD

cannot be fragmented into multiple comings, resurrections, and judgments, as premillennarians also assert.

In short, our study of the Kingdom has gone far towards resolving the End Time Debate in favor of the classic view of The Current Reign of Jesus Christ from Heaven, by God the Holy Spirit, in the Present Age, within All of Salvation History.

It remains, however, for us to probe Revelation 20 itself.
If it does not describe “a future millennial reign of Christ on earth”, what exactly does it describe?

…

If, as I have suggested along the way, it speaks of the Kingdom of the Son and Jesus’ CURRENT Heavenly, Mediatorial Reign, until the SECOND COMING of Jesus Christ at The END of THIS PRESENT WORLD,

is there anything in the Revelation broadly, or in Revelation 20 itself, to support this view?

Our purpose is to find out.

Let us begin, then, by getting a feel for the Revelation as a whole. In particular, let's see if there is anything in the Purpose, Literary Genre, and Structure of the Book of REVELATION that will help us better understand what is spoken of as the “Millennium”, from the actual wording which says, “a thousand years”, in Revelation 20."

...

If anyone Loves God enough to want to know.

Love is the issue.




...

Jesus isn't driectly reigning now, as is evident by the prevalence of sin worldwide. He & His Father are overseeing the universe, but Jesus isn't directly controlling the earth as He will be.

Please read my post to Dave where I presented some Scriptures with some details of Jesus' return. He & His saints will rule THIS EARTH for 1k years while Satan is banished. That's plain as day in every valid Bible version, old or new.