Jesus and the death Penalty?

[Don]

"If no crime deserves the death penalty, then it is hard to see why it is fitting that Christ be put to death for our sins...." - Professor Michael Pakaluk, Clark University.

Romans 13 - the government bears the sword as the minister of God, bringing wrath upon those who do evil.

I have no other way to explain it.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

"If no crime deserves the death penalty, then it is hard to see why it is fitting that Christ be put to death for our sins...." - Professor Michael Pakaluk, Clark University.

Romans 13 - the government bears the sword as the minister of God, bringing wrath upon those who do evil.

I have no other way to explain it.

The professor's quote is a disconnect. It is not logical.

And all I can do is to point to what Jesus taught.

By the way, to be consistent with your view of Romans 13, you would have to condemn those free churches for standing up against the state churches and affirm the state churches' punishment, even unto death, of the free churchmen.

 

[Zaac]

"If no crime deserves the death penalty, then it is hard to see why it is fitting that Christ be put to death for our sins...." - Professor Michael Pakaluk, Clark University.

Romans 13 - the government bears the sword as the minister of God, bringing wrath upon those who do evil.

I have no other way to explain it.

That makes no sense as Christ committed no crime and thus was not deserving of a death penalty.

As a mater of fact, the unrighteous punishment unto death of Christ by man is the ultimate display of man's inability to righteously decide that someone is punishable unto death.

Their unrighteous murder of Christ highlights why the ALL-KNOWING is the only One capable of RIGHTEOUSLY commanding such a punishment. He has not ceded the right to make such a final judgment to man.

 

[Revmitchell]

I'm talking about general principles here. I can see nowhere that Jesus was against punishment. I can see nowhere that he was for punishment unto death.

How convenient. Since He did not address the death penalty issue you cannot make that judgment except by your own bias.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

That makes no sense as Christ committed no crime and thus was not deserving of a death penalty.

False....Christ "BECAME" sin for us....and that deserved death. In the sense that the Father counted it....Jesus did indeed deserve "death". I am not (as a non-Calvinist) utterly wed to all of the precepts of the Penal Substitution theory of atonement as they tend to be....But there is MUCH about it which is true indeed. And one facet of that is that God was punishing sin...REAL SIN....when he crucified his own Son. Christ "Became" sin...and God rightly punished it

He has not ceded the right to make such a final judgment to man.

The Scriptures defy you, and in absolutely NO uncertain terms: I quote the Scripture:
Gen 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
That is the Word of God and you may despise it at your pleasure...but that is PRECISELY what it says....You will note that this has NOTHING, ZILCH, NIL NADA to do with Levitical Law, but is an eternal precept stated after the flood LOOOOOONGG before the Levitical legal system was in view. That's inescapable.
The trick used is to pretend that ANYTHING in the Old Testament is under the banner of Levitical Law...That's false and deceitful upon it's face.

The world according to God's Holy Word existed for at least 2,000 years prior to the Noahician deluge, and there was no such thing as a "JEW". The first 5 chapters of Genesis (if anyone cares about what the Bible says) tells us about what is fully ONE-THIRD of all human history...33% There was no such thing as a "JEW"...until centuries AFTER the Noahic covenant either until Abram's calling. The Potempkin argument of equivocating anything in the OLD Testament to Levitical Law is a deceitful Zeitgeist. The Death Penalty doesn't rest upon Levitical Ordinance....It rests upon eternal absolute judicial decree.

The murder of Abel by Cain speaks to this issue CLEARLY!!!! Cain made the (obvious) assumption that as a murderer, he was subject to death by any who would avenge Abel.....

However, God decided to grant to Cain a special "mark" to prevent such a reprisal. God did NOT say or suggest that Cain should not fear that, or that death was not a fair penalty for murder, but rather that he had a special purpose which he NEEDED to specify by a special "mark" to protect him.

The Scripture is CLEARLY in favour of the Death Penalty. Like it or lump it.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

The human part of me would have liked to see Casey Anthony put to death, for instance, but I believe Jesus teaches otherwise.

Why????
That's the "Blood-thirst" you accuse others of....I don't desire that.. Casey Anthony was acquitted. ACQUITTED.....As in, there was insufficient evidence to condemn her. YOU may desire the death of Casey....but us Death-penalty proponents have no desire for the shedding of innocent blood. She "MAY" have been guilty....but you, I think, stand alone, and on an island as desiring her death. You are too quick too desire dealing out death and judgement.
I believe in the death penalty.
I do not believe that Casey Anthony has been sufficiently proven in a reasonable court of law as having deserved it.
BTW: This is Florida..........Florida executes more women than even the State of Texas does....We will fry a chick in a heart-beat.............but only if they deserve it.

Anthony has not been legally demonstrated to deserve death. Having followed the trial, as a Floridian....I believe the trial was masterfully executed. The judge was impartial and a brilliant jurist. It was done correctly IMO....and if you lust for her blood, than you are wrong.

 

[Luke2427]

I'm talking about general principles here. I can see nowhere that Jesus was against punishment. I can see nowhere that he was for punishment unto death.

The Bible is more than just what is highlighted in red-letter editions.

We don't get to ignore thousands of pages of the Bible for convenience sake and then say we just believe in following the words of Jesus.

The words of Jesus are no more the words of God than any other of the words of the Bible.

ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of GOD.

There is no where in the Bible where God says- "OKAY, now you can start ignoring all that other stuff I authored and just cling to the words of Jesus."

Interpreting the Bible in context is always essential. It is difficult at times. It means we have to discern between directives given only to a specific people at a specific time (like, 'kill every man, woman and child of Jericho) and when the commands are universal.

But, just because it is difficult at times, it does not mean that we get to just CHUNK most of it away for convenience sake.

That is a terrible hermeneutic.

There is no, absolutely no, biblical reason to think that the several passages advocating the death penalty are no longer applicable.

Even if the New Testament did not REPEAT them, we should still apply them because the New Testament does not say we should do away with them.

Until you have a passage that clearly states to do away with something in the OT- you embrace it.

You don't get to arbitrarily take scissors to the Word of God to suit you.

 

[Zaac]

False....Christ "BECAME" sin for us....and that deserved death.

So how is that false? Christ STILL didn't commit any sin. The folks who put Him to death didn't have any idea that He would take on all sin, so they STILL had no way to righteously judge and put Him to death.

In the sense that the Father counted it....Jesus did indeed deserve "death".

Another comment that does nothing but support the fact that it is GOD ALONE who can righteously judge punishment unto death.

As for the rest of your post, you're quoting OT that we've already spoken to. GOD Himself was always giving the command.

 

[Luke2427]

False....Christ "BECAME" sin for us....and that deserved death.

So how is that false? Christ STILL didn't commit any sin. The folks who put Him to death didn't have any idea that He would take on all sin, so they STILL had no way to righteously judge and put Him to death.[/QUOTE]

Because he was slaughtered for OUR iniquities- and here is the important point- BY GOD.

He was not sentenced by Herod and Pilate ultimately. He was sentenced by GOD.

God who GAVE us the death penalty, also PRACTICES the death penalty.

That same God told us in HIS WORD to utilize it.

To be against it, is to be against the Word of God- plain and simple.

As for the rest of your post, you're quoting OT that we've already spoken to. GOD Himself was always giving the command.

Since when did God give us permission to ignore the Old Testament??

 

[Zaac]

Because he was slaughtered for OUR iniquities- and here is the important point- BY GOD.

He was not sentenced by Herod and Pilate ultimately. He was sentenced by GOD.

God who GAVE us the death penalty, also PRACTICES the death penalty.

That's exactly what I have said. GOD made the righteous judgment. NOT MAN.

That same God told us in HIS WORD to utilize it.

Where in His word has God told man to make the decision to take another man's life? As you just mentioned, Jesus was sentenced by GOD.

To be against it, is to be against the Word of God- plain and simple.

Nobody is against it when it's righteously done. And as you demonstrated with what you siad, the only One capable of doing so RIGHTEOUSLY is GOD.

Since when did God give us permission to ignore the Old Testament??

Who is ignoring the OT?The command to take a life in the OT was, as with Christ, given by GOD as it was also given to Moses, Joshua, etc, by GOD when it was righteously done.

 

[Luke2427]

That's exactly what I have said. GOD made the righteous judgment. NOT MAN.



Where in His word has God told man to make the decision to take another man's life? As you just mentioned, Jesus was sentenced by GOD.

You don't think the directive to Noah clearly states that God wished for the death penalty to be enforced?

God told Moses to utilize it.

Paul said God gave the sword to the government for this purpose.

How much Bible do you need?

Nobody is against it when it's righteously done. And as you demonstrated with what you siad, the only One capable of doing so RIGHTEOUSLY is GOD.

Where do those verses state that ONLY God should do it?

Who is ignoring the OT?The command to take a life in the OT was, as with Christ, given by GOD to Moses, Joshua, etc, when it was righteously done.

Joshua and Moses and Noah were sinners just as you and I are sinners.

There is no indication that it was supposed to be utilized ONLY by them- none whatsoever.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Who is ignoring the OT?The command to take a life in the OT was, as with Christ, given by GOD as it was also given to Moses, Joshua, etc, by GOD when it was righteously done.

Negative.....Herein is the lie, and I have already exposed it.....WE don't appeal to MOSES, JOSHUA....AARON, SAMUEL, etc.....

You have been provided the Scripture from Genesis sir....Genesis and PRE-Abraham...You will answer to that argument.

You may play your "Levitical Law" game at your leisure......we aren't arguing from Levitical Law, we are arguing from roughly 1,000 years PRE-Moses..........So, answer the argument as presented. You can't play the Mosaic Law Potempkin argument with me. I don't fall for it. Others do.....Neither I (nor Luke) are so easily distracted. Answer Genesis, not Moses.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

That's exactly what I have said. GOD made the righteous judgment. NOT MAN.
Where in His word has God told man to make the decision to take another man's life? As you just mentioned, Jesus was sentenced by GOD.

Yet again....an answer DIRECTLY from Scripture to your question:
Gen 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
You defy Scripture DIRECTLY and obstinately, and to your peril....this correction has already been offered to you. You merely obfuscate.

 

[Luke2427]

Yet again....an answer DIRECTLY from Scripture to your question:
Gen 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
You defy Scripture DIRECTLY and obstinately, and to your peril....this correction has already been offered to you. You merely obfuscate.

Precisely.

____________

 

[Zaac]

You don't think the directive to Noah clearly states that God wished for the death penalty to be enforced?

God told Moses to utilize it.

yes, GOD told Moses to utilize it. When it was righteous, it was always from God.

Paul said God gave the sword to the government for this purpose.

How much Bible do you need?

But the Whole of Scripture does not show that He gave to man the right to exact punishment unto death.

Where do those verses state that ONLY God should do it?

Where do they state that He ceded that final judgment to men? You've already given testimony repeatedly that it is God giving the command in those instances of penalty unto death.

Joshua and Moses and Noah were sinners just as you and I are sinners.

But God communicated DIRECTLY to them and gave HIS command to do so. They didn't have to decide whether someone was due death as GOD commanded them to take the lives.

There is no indication that it was supposed to be utilized ONLY by them- none whatsoever.

Then you're ignoring the testimony of Christ and the NT. It was to be utilized when HE gave the command to as He is the only way capable of making such a righteous judgment.

 

[Zaac]

Yet again....an answer DIRECTLY from Scripture to your question:
Gen 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
You defy Scripture DIRECTLY and obstinately, and to your peril....this correction has already been offered to you. You merely obfuscate.

Doing circles now. Given to the Jews. In His completed Law, the default is His grace and mercy.

And Scripture shows as such.

 

[Luke2427]

yes, GOD told Moses to utilize it. When it was righteous, it was always from God.



But the Whole of Scripture does not show that He gave to man the right to exact punishment unto death.

What Bible have you been reading??

The whole of Scripture shows EXACTLY that.

You could not store the blood shed approved by God in the Bible in Lake Michigan.

How many MILLIONS fell at the end of Israelite swords in the Bible against the backdrop of God's big thumbs up?

Where do they state that He ceded that final judgment to men?

We have shown you repeatedly.

God said it in NO UNCERTAIN terms to Noah.

Anybody who knows beans from apple butter about the Bible knows that that is exactly what Paul meant in Romans.


And the law God gave Moses was to be enforced for hundreds, indeed, THOUSANDS of years after he died.

How much clearer could this issue be?

It would LITERALLY be easier to argue that Jesus was not born of a virgin than it would be to argue that God does not approve of the use of capital punishment and the killing of men at the hands of men.

 

[Zaac]

What Bible have you been reading??

I only know of one Holy Bible. is there another you would have me read?

The whole of Scripture shows EXACTLY that.

That God is the ONLY ONE who can make that decision? I agree.:thumbs:

You could not store the blood shed approved by God in the Bible in Lake Michigan.

How many MILLIONS fell at the end of Israelite swords in the Bible?

The Israelites were commanded by God to kill.

It would LITERALLY be easier to argue that Jesus was not born of a virgin than it would be to argue that God does not approve of the use of capital punishment and the killing of men at the hands of men.

Who said He did not approve of it? I said He isn't giving His OKAY for men to do that now as He did in the OT. So you let me know the next time someone says they heard from God that it's okay to take somebody else's life.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Doing circles now. Given to the Jews. In His completed Law, the default is His grace and mercy.

And Scripture shows as such.

That's again.....false........NOT given to "Jews". You WANT this to be given to "JEWS" but it wasn't. I know you DESPERATELY need this to be a Levitical Law notion.....but it isn't, and I am not stupid enough to grant it to you.

This was NOT given to "Jews" it is absolutely NOT "Levitical" and it was not a part of a Legal system you may realistically equivocate with eating oysters.......I know you desperately want this to be the moral equivalent of mixing fabrics......but it isn't and any honest student of Scripture knows it,and only foolish men will fall for this. This is a Universal given distinctly before God revealed to us the table of Nations...........ALL men know this Universal moral law and this has NOTHING ZILCH NADA to do with Judaism or Mosaic Levitical Law.

I know you want to define the argument as such........but, nothing doing. You will absolutely NOT get away with that hoakum whilst I am here.

That deceit will NOT work here. Try something else.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

It would LITERALLY be easier to argue that Jesus was not born of a virgin than it would be to argue that God does not approve of the use of capital punishment and the killing of men at the hands of men.

Some might think that this is hyperbole.......but it absolutely isn't. What you said here is LITERALLY true. The Bible is probably MORE clear about advocating the death penalty than it is the Virgin birth of Christ. That is dead-on.