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Jesus THE Creator - Part 1

SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
37818 said:
Yes. If they are a 1st, 2nd and so on. If they are equal they cannot be the same. The Persons who are God are one and the same God not three God's like 3 CEO's.
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I don't think that you understand the Bible's teaching of God. Very simply put it is, One God, or Godhead, and Three Persons, Who are EQUALLY YHWH, and therefore cannot be in any way, "inferior" or "superior", to each other. Study what the Name YHWH means in the Hebrew, which Father, Son and Holy Spirit are in the Bible, and then you will understand exactly what their relationship is.
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace said:
Eternal God is only found in the Holy Bible, without which us humans would have zero knowledge about God.
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It is by means of human language, translation and logic by which we have concluded that those writings so handed down to us to be a Holy Bible. Deuteronomy 33:27. 1 John 5:9.
 
SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
37818 said:
It is by means of human language, translation and logic by which we have concluded that those writings so handed down to us to be a Holy Bible. Deuteronomy 33:27. 1 John 5:9.
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here again you err greatly. The Lord used human writers, but what they wrote was what God told them to! There is ZERO human logic, or ideas or anything else, that is in the Holy Bible, which is why it is Infallible and Inerrant and Perfect, because it IS the Word of God!
 
canadyjd

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace said:
which ever way you take it, any form of "subordination" within the Godhead, equates to the Persons being "unequal", and therefore the has to be hierarchy in the Godhead, which is an impossibility if the Three are YHWH. This whole idea of "subordination", prior to the Incarnation, is heretical.
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Please explain why “any form of subordination within the Godhead” is heretical, but only prior to the incarnation?

Why does subordination during the incarnation not result in the same problems you are arguing against?

peace to you
 
SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
canadyjd said:
Please explain why “any form of subordination within the Godhead” is heretical, but only prior to the incarnation?

Why does subordination during the incarnation not result in the same problems you are arguing against?

peace to you
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lets see if I can keep this simple and clear. Post Incarnational is when the Second Person of the Godhead, the Lord Jesus Christ, became the God-Man, as the Bible says, "God was manifested in the flesh" (1 Timothy 3:16). It was for this time only, that Jesus was made "lower" even than the angels, because of the suffering of death (Hebrews 2:7-9). Jesus prays to the Father in John chapter 17, that He will be returning, after His Resurrection and Ascension, to the SAME, EQUAL Glory, that He ALWAYS had with the Father, before the world was even created (verse 5). This "Glory" is what Jesus "emptied" Himself of, when He took upon Himself the "nature on humans (apart from sin)" as taught in Philippians 2:5-11, where we also read that He had become "obedient" up to the time of His death. This does not apply to before His Incarnation, but limited to His time on earth.
 
canadyjd

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace said:
lets see if I can keep this simple and clear. Post Incarnational is when the Second Person of the Godhead, the Lord Jesus Christ, became the God-Man, as the Bible says, "God was manifested in the flesh" (1 Timothy 3:16). It was for this time only, that Jesus was made "lower" even than the angels, because of the suffering of death (Hebrews 2:7-9). Jesus prays to the Father in John chapter 17, that He will be returning, after His Resurrection and Ascension, to the SAME, EQUAL Glory, that He ALWAYS had with the Father, before the world was even created (verse 5). This "Glory" is what Jesus "emptied" Himself of, when He took upon Himself the "nature on humans (apart from sin)" as taught in Philippians 2:5-11, where we also read that He had become "obedient" up to the time of His death. This does not apply to before His Incarnation, but limited to His time on earth.
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Thanks for keeping it simple for me. You seem to be saying the 2nd person of the Godhead was not only functionally subordinate, but actually subordinate after the incarnation. Is that correct? Did He become “less God” during the incarnation?

You seem to be saying there was a time when Jesus the Son was “lesser” and God the Father was greater? Is that correct?

Once again, why is it heretical to believe any form of subordination prior to incarnation, but not during incarnation....prior to resurrection and ascension?

peace to you
 
SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
canadyjd said:
Thanks for keeping it simple for me. You seem to be saying the 2nd person of the Godhead was not only functionally subordinate, but actually subordinate after the incarnation. Is that correct? Did He become “less God” during the incarnation?

You seem to be saying there was a time when Jesus the Son was “lesser” and God the Father was greater? Is that correct?

Once again, why is it heretical to believe any form of subordination prior to incarnation, but not during incarnation....prior to resurrection and ascension?

peace to you
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Jesus was ONLY "less" than the Father, because He was The Servant, and as such, the Father was for that time, "greater" than Jesus Christ. This is for His earthly work as the God-Man. While Jesus was "subordinate" is His God-Man status, while on earth, to the Father, yet, at the same time He could say as God, that He and the Father are one in power and authority, and therefore, in essense. Jesus at times did things and spoke as God, and other times, as Man. So, as God, He could forgive sins on earth, and command the waves to stop; as Man, He eat and drank, and slept, and "grew in wisdom", etc.

Prior to the Incarnation, Jesus was not the God-Man, but just God, and within the Godhead, as God, there was no "functional subordination", because as Almighty God, with the Father and Holy Spirit, He IS completely COEQUAL with Them. If there is any "subordination" in the Godhead with the Three Persons, then there cannot be "Equality", as they are God, and there is no God-Man prior to Jesus Birth. Hope this helps.
 
Y

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
canadyjd said:
I appreciate your passion for your position, but please don’t refer to another position as nonsense.

Im really attempting to understand the issue here, and that doesn’t help.

As I see it, the question is:

Does a doctrine of functional subordination among co-equal persons within the Godhead necessarily mean actual subordination, leading to greater/lesser persons within the Godhead?

Biblically, it is clear there is no actual subordination within the Godhead. Each person contains all attributes of God.

Your initial post attempted to demonstrate through the study of Greek/Hebrew that scripture doesn’t really teach functional subordination beyond the incarnation.

I must admit I’m not convinced. You acknowledge functional subordination with the incarnation, but not prior or after.

Why does functional subordination during the incarnation not lead to the same issues you are arguing against... that is one person within the Godhead is “greater” than another? If it doesn’t, why would those issues arise prior to incarnation and after ascension?

I will consider all the info. I’ll even re-read your initial post which was not particularly clear to me.

Again, thanks for the info

peace to you
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Does each member having different roles to do make.mean there is subordination then?
 
Y

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
canadyjd said:
Please explain why “any form of subordination within the Godhead” is heretical, but only prior to the incarnation?

Why does subordination during the incarnation not result in the same problems you are arguing against?

peace to you
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Because one Member of the Trinity agreed to impose upon Himself limitations of becoming a man!
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace said:
here again you err greatly. The Lord used human writers, but what they wrote was what God told them to! There is ZERO human logic, or ideas or anything else, that is in the Holy Bible, which is why it is Infallible and Inerrant and Perfect, because it IS the Word of God!
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So am I to understand you actually believe what is handed down is perfectly identical to the autographes with prefect inerrant translation?
 
V

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
SavedByGrace said:
can you then define this for us who don't understand like your great self? :Geek
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I am not the one claiming to read minds.
When a person chooses to take direction from another Person, out of devotion and love, they are operating subordinately. This does not mean they are not equal in essence, or personhood, or importance. I already provided the example of taking direction from a child out of love and devotion.
 
canadyjd

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace said:
Jesus was ONLY "less" than the Father, because He was The Servant, and as such, the Father was for that time, "greater" than Jesus Christ. This is for His earthly work as the God-Man. While Jesus was "subordinate" is His God-Man status, while on earth, to the Father, yet, at the same time He could say as God, that He and the Father are one in power and authority, and therefore, in essense. Jesus at times did things and spoke as God, and other times, as Man. So, as God, He could forgive sins on earth, and command the waves to stop; as Man, He eat and drank, and slept, and "grew in wisdom", etc.

Prior to the Incarnation, Jesus was not the God-Man, but just God, and within the Godhead, as God, there was no "functional subordination", because as Almighty God, with the Father and Holy Spirit, He IS completely COEQUAL with Them. If there is any "subordination" in the Godhead with the Three Persons, then there cannot be "Equality", as they are God, and there is no God-Man prior to Jesus Birth. Hope this helps.
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I appreciate the discussion, but disagree that Jesus was actually subordinate during the incarnation. I don’t believe He was ever actually “lesser” than any other person within the Godhead, but only functionally so.

Whether that functionally subordination existed eternally is something I’ll have to study more.

Again, thanks for a civil and meaningful discussion.

peace to you
 
Y

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
canadyjd said:
I appreciate the discussion, but disagree that Jesus was actually subordinate during the incarnation. I don’t believe He was ever actually “lesser” than any other person within the Godhead, but only functionally so.

Whether that functionally subordination existed eternally is something I’ll have to study more.

Again, thanks for a civil and meaningful discussion.

peace to you
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Also, there is the unique situation where Jesus agreed to limit Himself and become a Man, and divest much of his "glory" had with the father, but now has that full glory back!
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
canadyjd said:
Whether that functionally subordination existed eternally is something I’ll have to study more.
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Weigh John 1:1-2. Twice we are told He was with the God, but in that text it was only needed once to say He was God. In Him becoming incarnate, John 1:14, only how He was with God changed, not that He was God. Good to understand. Because God does not change.
 
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