John 12:32 in context

[HankD]

Sure he does...from other Scriptures.
God's word is not understood in bits and pieces like "verses"...it is a continuous book of letters written like a one-sided conversation; Some in narrative, some in direct letters to groups of believers.

The reason we understand the "all" to mean "all kinds of men" is because there are too many contradictions if many of the places that state "all men" actually means, "each and every man woman and child who ever lived".

We find the vital parts of this in places like the prophets and especially Revelation 5:9 and Revelation 7:9.

The same with the word, "world".

If God so loved the world, means that God loves every man, woman and child equally, then you better tell the residents of Sodom and Gomorrah that God loved them while raining fire and brimstone down on them.
While you're at it, you may wish to tell the millions who drowned in the Flood that God loved them, all the while killing them and preserving Noah and his family on the ark.

"For God loved the world" is the most difficult passage of the Bible for the followers of a human theologian.

Personally I have no problem with God's universal love of mankind though for the benefit of the elect the lost are doomed and/or destroyed.

Also then by that token what do you say to those Christians over the centuries that were eaten by lions, burned at the stake and suffered torture and death when at any moment in time God in His love could have delivered them and their children.

Would you do this to your children?

 

[SovereignGrace]

This is how it reads in Greek below;
Jn 12 32 And if I be lifted up from the earth, all I will Draw.

"Must therefore mean" doesn't cut it. You are assuming what you wrote here, you have no scriptural backing for it
The Greek text does not say all peoples, tribes nations, and tongues. Scripture does not say "irresistible drawing" anywhere. If I'm wrong show scripture to prove it to be true.
MB

How does He draw those who will die and have died never hearing the gospel about Him?

 

[Dave G]

Followers of C say that the elect "are/were" chosen by unconditional decree with no motivating reason on God's part.

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 and hath raised [us] up together, and made us sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
7 that in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9 not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." ( Ephesians 2:4-10 )

That's His motivating reason.

 

[Dave G]

"For God loved the world" is the most difficult passage of the Bible for the followers of a human theologian.

I don't follow a human theologian, Hank.
"For God so loved the world" is the most misunderstood passage in all the Bible.
Mainly because other passages clearly demonstrate, at least to me, that He dosn't love each and every man woman and child who ever lived.

 

[HankD]

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 and hath raised [us] up together, and made us sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
7 that in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9 not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." ( Ephesians 2:4-10 )

That's His motivating reason.

Ah Yes, I admitted that but sometimes it is difficult to prove in the lives of Christians over a period of time and I have fellowshipped with all sorts, easy to quote but to be forthright sometimes difficult to find.

Most followers of C and some followers of A in my experience (well not quite so bad here at the BB) seem weak in this area which is one of the several reasons I am a Mugwump.

But then again the BB has an open door to debate so allowances are proper IMO and the BB is generally speaking a pleasant place of fellowship and Christian exchange.

However, "Sound Doctrine" without love is the flaw which Jesus found in the Ephesian Church in the Book of Revelation.

Again and of course there is a balance between sound doctrine and agape love lest one be a clanging symbol;

Corinthians 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not love, I am nothing.

 

[HankD]

I don't follow a human theologian, Hank.
"For God so loved the world" is the most misunderstood passage in all the Bible.
Mainly because other passages clearly demonstrate, at least to me, that He dosn't love each and every man woman and child who ever lived.

I disagree. Just because you can't comprehend it does not disprove His love.

Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

 

[MB]

And to me, he is correct.

If Jesus meant that when He was lifted up ( crucified ), that He would draw all to Him spiritually, then in John 6:44 He is lying by saying that it is the Father who draws, and all that are drawn come to Him and are raised up.

Maybe you see it this way because you do not believe that Jesus and the Father are the same God. Jesus said this to Phillip;
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
No where does scripture say that Jesus can't draw anyone. John 6:44 does not say that the Father alone can draw.

Jesus is not a liar.
He cannot be the one doing the drawing that results in a person coming to Him in belief, and contradicting what he said 6 chapters back about His Father being the one doing the drawing.

No matter what context you put this in, it signifies what death He should die, and has nothing to do with salvation.

I agree Jesus is not a Liar However you provided nothing to support your view that only God can draw people to Christ.

Jesus is not the Father and is not the Holy Spirit.
They are three in one.
Three separate entities all in agreement ( 1 John 5:7 ).

All are God, and all are "triune".
They each have separate functions in the "trinity".

I agree that the three are one I disagree that they can't do their will just because you think this is the way it is with out scripture. God is not limited where ever the Son goes the Father is with Him

Jesus is the Word made flesh ( John 1:1-3 ), and the Son of God.
God the Father dictates His will and word to the Son ( John 7:16, John 8:26, John 12:49, John 14:10 ), who carries it out.
The Holy Spirit is the one who, unseen, does the bidding of both, as I understand it.
He travels everywhere and is everywhere.

It makes sense that you don't believe Jesus draws all. Because this disrupts Calvinism and makes it unbelievable. I'll stand by what scripture actually says, not what men think..
MB

 

[MB]

How does He draw those who will die and have died never hearing the gospel about Him?

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
No one has the excuse that they didn't hear the gospel because God place the knowledge inside of them.
MB

 

[SovereignGrace]

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
No one has the excuse that they didn't hear the gospel because God place the knowledge inside of them.
MB

Nope. Try again. This is mysticism.

18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written,

“I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE,


AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE.”

20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

It takes the gospel to save ppl, not this mysticism you’re averring.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
No one has the excuse that they didn't hear the gospel because God place the knowledge inside of them.
MB

Everybody loves this...


8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”[Romans 10]

Now, how does anyone call upon the Lord?

By this...


14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHOBRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!”
16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.[Romans 10]

No hearing the word of God(reading it can save ppl as well) means no faith. No faith means no justification. No justification means no salvation.

 

[calledbyHisgrace]

SovereignGrace,

You didn't include verse 18:

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world." (Romans 10:17-18)

God is not limited to human preachers:

"The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. (Psalms 19:1-4)

 

[SovereignGrace]

SovereignGrace,

You didn't include verse 18:

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world." (Romans 10:17-18)

God is not limited to human preachers:

"The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. (Psalms 19:1-4)

That does not mean everyone whoever lived will hear about the Christ but that it goes worldwide. Ppl like Billy Graham, Michael Jordan, Michael Jackson, Elvis Presley are known all over the world, but not everybody whoever lived has heard of them.

The 1 Corinthians 1 passage I previously posted God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. It takes the gospel being proclaimed or read, to save sinners.

 

[MB]

Nope. Try again. This is mysticism.

18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written,

“I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE,


AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE.”

20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

It takes the gospel to save ppl, not this mysticism you’re averring.

You do not seem to understand scripture. Nothing of what you said here has anything to do with this subject.
MB

 

[SovereignGrace]

You do not seem to understand scripture. Nothing of what you said here has anything to do with this subject.
MB

Yes it does, and I’m not the one who understands scripture? We’re talking about drawing in John 12:32. Ppl are drawn to God by the word of God. It is through the preaching of the gospel that ppl are saved. 1 Corinthians 1:21 says it. Romans 10:14-17 says it. Ephesians 1:13 says it.

Faith coming by hearing the word of God. Ppl are drawn via the word of God. No word of God means no drawing.

 

[tyndale1946]

Yes it does, and I’m not the one who understands scripture? We’re talking about drawing in John 12:32. Ppl are drawn to God by the word of God. It is through the preaching of the gospel that ppl are saved. 1 Corinthians 1:21 says it. Romans 10:14-17 says it. Ephesians 1:13 says it.

Faith coming by hearing the word of God. Ppl are drawn via the word of God. No word of God means no drawing.

Well I won't belabor the point or argue about it only bring it up for consideration... What about the two thieves on the cross, one was drawn and the other was not... According to scripture neither heard the gospel... Brother Glen

 

[SovereignGrace]

Well I won't belabor the point or argue about it only bring it up for consideration... What about the two thieves on the cross, one was drawn and the other was not... According to scripture neither heard the gospel... Brother Glen

Calvinism and Deathbed Conversions

He was there with the Christ. However, we know nothing about either. We don’t know if he(the saved) or both heard the Christ preach. They both heard His witness whilst hanging in the cross.

 

[MB]

[QUOTE="SovereignGrace, post: 2486677, member: 12413]
Yes it does,and I’m not the one who understands scripture? We’re talking about drawing in John 12:32. Ppl are drawn to God by the word of God. It is through the preaching of the gospel that ppl are saved. 1 Corinthians 1:21 says it. Romans 10:14-17 says it. Ephesians 1:13 says it.

Faith coming by hearing the word of God. Ppl are drawn via the word of God. No word of God means no drawing.[/QUOTE]

True but where did the word come from if not from God and His Son. It is God's word with out which we would all be lost. It all comes from God's workings.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
MB

 

[MB]

Well I won't belabor the point or argue about it only bring it up for consideration... What about the two thieves on the cross, one was drawn and the other was not... According to scripture neither heard the gospel... Brother Glen

No one knows whether they heard it or not. Why speculate about what no one knows.
MB

 

[tyndale1946]

He was there with the Christ. However, we know nothing about either. We don’t know if he(the saved) or both heard the Christ preach. They both heard His witness whilst hanging in the cross.

I refer you to post #10 on the following link... Brother Glen

Calvinism and Deathbed Conversions

 

[MB]

I love how you did not even bother to address my post.

I'm sorry I didn't see anything in your post that needed a reply since you reject what the verse actually says in Jn.12;32 You must not understand that the changing of scripture does not make what you claim to be true. Just because some translator changed it. You are avoiding the obvious and claiming I'm wrong based on a added to version of Jn 12:32.
You have a bible I presume show me from scripture where I've misquoted scripture. You haven't yet.
MB