And repentance is a gift of God. Romans 2:4
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JOHN 3:16 - FOR GOD SO LOVES THE WHOLE HUMAN RACE
- Thread starter Saved-By-Grace
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God so loved the whole human race that those who don't reciprocate this love to Him, He will do a complete 180 on them, pour His wrath out on them and cast them headlong into an eternal Gehenna.
This is the thrust of the OP. God is no longer immutable but mutable.
This is the thrust of the OP. God is no longer immutable but mutable.
They use this serpent incorrectly. What if a Philistine, Assyrian, Jebusite, Hittite, Hivvite got bitten? They were goners, as they weren't afforded the opportunity to look at that bronze serpent and live.
All of God's promises are for His children and none else. These children are those He chose from before the creation of the world.
Nonsense. If people by nature are totally depraved there is no hardening required.
If there is no free will there is no such thing as bondage since you are doing God's perfect will whether you are elect or not. You are going to sin exactly as God willed it and not sin exactly like God willed it.
[emoji99]
The Greek version still says the same thing.
καὶ αὐτὸς ἱλασμός ἐστι περὶ τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν ἡμῶν· οὐ περὶ τῶν ἡμετέρων δὲ μόνον, ἀλλὰ καὶ περὶ ὅλου τοῦ κόσμου.
You can quote any bible version you want!
New International Version
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
New Living Translation
He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins--and not only our sins but the sins of all the world.
English Standard Version
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
Berean Study Bible
He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours alone, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Berean Literal Bible
And He is the propitiation for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for those of the whole world.
New American Standard Bible
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
King James Bible
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for those of the whole world.
International Standard Version
It is he who is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world's.
NET Bible
and he himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for our sins but also for the whole world.
New Heart English Bible
And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For He is The Atonement who is for the sake of our sins, and not in our place only, but also in the place of the entire universe.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
He is the payment for our sins, and not only for our sins, but also for the sins of the whole world.
New American Standard 1977
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
Jubilee Bible 2000
and he is the reconciliation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
King James 2000 Bible
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
American King James Version
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
American Standard Version
and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
Darby Bible Translation
and he is the propitiation for our sins; but not for ours alone, but also for the whole world.
English Revised Version
and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.
Webster's Bible Translation
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Weymouth New Testament
and He is an atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
World English Bible
And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.
Young's Literal Translation
and he -- he is a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world,
NONE OF THEM say he is the propitiation for our sins and our sins only.
How you going to squirm out of that one?
If you are totally deaf God is going to punish you by having you lose more hearing?
That is nonsense.
Calvinist make God out to be an idiot.
Luke 6
46“Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
Menno answers: Maybe because you haven't made them elect.....durrrrrr......
Calvinist Jesus: thanks menno.....i wasn't too sure how the whole thing works.
Apparently the belief is God is so dumb he can't find his own rear with both hands and a flashlight.
The bible does not speak of free will as far as man's nature goes.
It is not a biblical concept, but carnal philosophy and rebellion.
You cannot shown it anywhere.
Now, here's the context of the bronze serpent...
Israel said that if God would deliver the Canaanites into their hand, they would thoroughly destroy their cities. He did and then later they grumbled to Moses and God about lack of food and water and loathed that miserable food. They called the manna that their God had provided for them miserable food. For this God sent them fiery serpents that bit them and died. After they repented, God commanded Moses to make a bronze serpent that if any Israelite(notice it was only they and not any of the other nations that had the serpent to gaze upon) looked to that serpent, they would live.
The serpent that was raised up for Israel, was a type of the Christ to come. The serpent was raised up for Israel's healing, the Christ was raised up for His earthly ppl, the true Israel of God, those who have been circumcised in their hearts by God's Spirit.
To use Numbers 21 to support a universal atonement is just plain ridiculous. Its eisegesis at its apex.
But Brother Mennosota, that's the sad state of our churches these days. They want a God that does not hate, only loves, loves, loves!! That's why there's no fear in ppl's eyes. A God of pure love will not toss them into hell. Uh, wrong!!
2 Studderations 3:16...
Katarina Von Bora
Active Member
Indeed!
John 15:16: "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."
John 1:12,13: "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
Acts 13:48: "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."
Romans 9:15-16: "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."
Romans 9:22-24: "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"
Ephesians 1:4-5: "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"
Ephesians 1:11: "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:"
Philippians 1:29: "For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;"
1 Thessalonians 1:4-5: "Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake."
2 Thessalonians 2:13: "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"
2 Timothy 1:9: "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"
Ephesians 2:8-10 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God
John 6:37 - All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 6:44 - 4 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
1 Peter 1:2 - Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
Limited Atonement is an outrageous HERESY! Sinful man has placed a "limit" on the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ, Who Himself has said in John 3:16, "for God so loved the human race, that WHOSOEVER...". The problems is with the Calvinists and Reformers, that they are so hardened and blinded by their theological rubbish, that they WILL NOT see any truth. Once the would proudly claim John Calvin himself as the author of the TUILP theology, but they cannot as he rightly did NOT believe in the HERESY of an limited or restricted atonement. These people are so ignorant to what the Bible teaches, that their reasoning and arguments are flawed. They say there is no text that uses "free will", yet they cannot find ONE text that uses the word "Trinity"! Does this mean that the teaching is not found in the Bible? Such is their ignorance!
Here is another angle. Calvinist do not believe Jesus Christ to be 100% Human. Because humans beings 100% don't have free will.
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
Do you know what the word "repent" means? When Jesus and the Apostles command that all sinners REPENT, they are asking that we change our mind and attitude towards sin and God. Thereby telling someone to "change direction", which is only possible if they had the capacity to "make a decision", which requires FREE WILL. God commands ALL people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30), which means a CHANGE. If the will of man is "bound" as Calvinists claim, then this command by God is pointless, because sinful man could not do it! Note, it does say "ALL MEN EVERYWHERE", language that cannot be limited to the "elect", but to the WHOLE HUMAN RACE!
Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?[Romans 2:4]
He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.[Acts 5:31]
When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.”[Acts 11:18]
with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,[2 Timothy 2:25]
Here's 4 verses that state repentance is a gift from God. God knows how to save ppl w/o them getting in His way. Get out of His way, okay?
The sovereignity of God makes your blood boil, doesn't it? It shows through in every one of your postings. Why is that?
Oh wait, I know. If God is sovereign, then that means you're not and that your free will is nothing more than philosophical meanderings.
George Knight the Third renders it as :
"...who is the Savior of all people, that is, of those who believe."
In Thomas R. Schreiner's book :Paul : Apostle of God's Glory In Christ : A Pauline Theology
Schreiner deals with 1 Timothy 4:10 :...is the Savior of all people, especially believers." He goes on to state :"The words especially believers specify more precisely who is saved. in this instance the word malista could be translated 'that is.' The verse would then read 'God is the savior of all people, that is, believers.' " (p.185)
The same thing applies with respect to 1 John 2:2.
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
you guys have a very serious problem! how you can jump to conclusions that are based on your rather ignorant understanding of what the Bible actually says, and people like me believe! I don't think any serious believer in Jesus Christ would ever doubt or question that God is absolutely Sovereign over ALL of creation. Just because I mention "free will", you so wrongly conclude that I have problems with God's Sovereignty? If, as you guys say, that man does not have a "free will", then God is the author of sin! Its that simple! Are you suggesting that non believers are not capable of doing anything that is "morally right"? There are many who do not follow the Lord, whose lives are more "godly" than many who claim to be "Christians"!!! So, when a non believer has the "choice" of doing wrong, like stealing, and they don't, is this not their exercising their "free will", in doing what is "morally right"? They may not please the Lord, but then can live better and more "moral" lives than many believers! You guys are so hung up on your "theology", that you cannot see what the Bible actually says on issues like "free will". How can God command all of mankind, both "elect" and "non elect" to repent, when He knows that the latter are not capable of doing so? Are you saying that God makes unjust requirements?
Your warped "theology" makes Calvinists like Wayne Grudem make some really dumb statements:
"In Spite of All of the Foregoing Statements, We Have to Come to the Point Where We Confess That We Do Not Understand How It Is That God Can Ordain That We Carry Out Evil Deeds and Yet Hold Us Accountable for Them and Not be Blamed Himself: We can affirm that all of these things are true, because Scripture teaches them. But Scripture does not tell us exactly how God brings this situation about or how it can be that God holds us accountable for what he ordains to come to pass. Here Scripture is silent, and we have to agree with Berkhof that ultimately “the problem of God’s relation to sin remains a mystery" (Systematic Theology, p.331.)
So, here we have God actually "ordaining" that we carry out "evil deeds", and then when we do them, He punishes us for this!!! What a monstrous thing to say! God "ordains" that we rape, murder, steal, commit adultery, formication, incest, and every other EVIL under the sun, and then punishes us for doing what HE MADE US DO! This is utterly DEMONIC! This is what "Calvinism" actually amounts to!
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