JOHN 3:16 - FOR GOD SO LOVES THE WHOLE HUMAN RACE

[Martin Marprelate]

Whether or not anyone else believes a saved person can lose their salvation, I cannot answer, as I do not know what everyone believes here. No doubt those who do not hold to "once saved always saved", will believe this. My post is not dealing with the "eternal security" of believers. As to you other question. "Universal Atonement" does not mean "Universal Salvation", that all will be saved. Nor does it mean that "all have been saved". I believe that the death of Jesus Christ provides the Atonement for the repentant sinner, who comes to Jesus in faith for his salvation through His finished work on the cross. How can the "whole human race" be saved, when we know that the greater majority will perish and end up in hell? Further, no person can ever be saved without their acknowledgement of their sins, their need to repent of their sinful life, and accept what Jesus Christ has done on the cross for them.

Thanks for your reply.
I was not asking about 'eternal security.' In my first question I asked, are you under the impression that there are some on this board who believe that there are some who will believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and yet will nonetheless perish? John 3:16 states that 'God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.' I don't know of anyone who disagrees with that statement; I was wondering if you did.

My second question was about John 3:17. If God sent His Son into the world that the world through Him might be saved, and the world means 'the whole human race,' how come the whole human race is not saved? You replied,

"Universal Atonement" does not mean "Universal Salvation", that all will be saved. Nor does it mean that "all have been saved"

Fair enough, but in that case, 'world' in John 3:17 does not mean 'the whole human race,' does it?

 

[Iconoclast]

that is what you say. So what I have quoted from the Bible from John and Acts, is wrong? Read again what the Apostle Paul says why people will go to hell:

"They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."

I cannot understand the hate that the co-called "reformers" and "Calvinists" have for the world? It is very clear in their warped arguments that God has "selected" just a few to be saved, and damned the others!!! You you guys thing that you are "better" than the rest? that somehow you "deserve" to be saved and the non-elect damned to hell?

The Bible very clearly says that people are given a clear choice, like Joshua says "choose this day whom you will serve" (Joshua 24:14-15), words that are completely pointless if they could not! What did Elijah mean when he said, "“How long will you go limping between two different opinions? If the Lord is God, follow him; but if Baal, then follow him.” (1 Kings 18:21)? Are you saying that he was not giving the people a real choice between the Real God of the Bible, and the false gods of the world? Jesus Himself says, "He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad." (Matthew 12:30). What did God mean when He speaks through Moses, "Now listen! Today I am giving you a choice between life and death, between prosperity and disaster." (Deuteronomy 30:15)?

So many errors here.
I understand your concern but let's see why it is misguided.
The world system hates God and His word.
So much so that when God took upon Himself a body of flesh they murdered Him.
Nevertheless God in mercy has purposed to save a multitude of sinners worldwide.
You seek to diminish the truth of God saying a select few...rather than an elected multitude that no man can number.
Do you hate the truth of God so much that you have to change Divine revelation and substitute your flawed ideas in place of truth.
A sinners died in the fall and if God does not intervene would all perish.
I notice you did not respond to my first post in a meaningful way...I think I know why
Calvinists know they are sinners but are eager to boast In the Lord and His electing mercy and grace.
Do you have a problem saying believers are elected by God, called to be saints?
You go to Joshua/Deut. Trying to suggest that these exhortations to service, were invitations to salvation??? These were professed covenant people of God.....
Try again

 

[SheepWhisperer]

1 john 2

2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and our sins only.


One of these verses is in the bible. The other is a false teaching.

Yes, the second one is false. How can they deny the first is beyond me.

 

[MennoSota]

Read very carefully what Jesus says in John 3:16, "for God so loved the human race, that HE GAVE".

Yes, let us read John 3 carefully.
Notice how verses 14&15 define verse 16. Notice that everyone who believes will have eternal life. Right there we see Jesus stating that God has limited the atonement to those who believe.
Now verse 16. Note that God loved the world and gave His Son to those who believe, not to those who don't believe. Again, we see a limited atonement.
Look at the next verses and see how verses 18-21 clarify verse 17. Notice that God does not judge those who believe, but those who don't believe are already judged. This is perfectly in line with Paul's teaching in Ephesians 1 where we read that believers have been chosen before the foundation of the world.
This also fits with Romans 3 where Paul quotes the Psalmist and tells us that there are none that seek God, not even one.
So, Yes, let us look at John 3 and let us all concur that you are terribly wrong. [emoji41]
John 3:14-21
[14]And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
[15]so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.
[16]“For this is how God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
[17]God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.
[18]“There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son.
[19]And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil.
[20]All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed.
[21]But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants.”

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Yes, the second one is false. How can they deny the first is beyond me.

Actually both are false, or at least, not according to the original Greek.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

Yes, let us read John 3 carefully.
Notice how verses 14&15 define verse 16. Notice that everyone who believes will have eternal life. Right there we see Jesus stating that God has limited the atonement to those who believe.
Now verse 16. Note that God loved the world and gave His Son to those who believe, not to those who don't believe. Again, we see a limited atonement.
Look at the next verses and see how verses 18-21 clarify verse 17. Notice that God does not judge those who believe, but those who don't believe are already judged. This is perfectly in line with Paul's teaching in Ephesians 1 where we read that believers have been chosen before the foundation of the world.
This also fits with Romans 3 where Paul quotes the Psalmist and tells us that there are none that seek God, not even one.
So, Yes, let us look at John 3 and let us all concur that you are terribly wrong. [emoji41]
John 3:14-21
[14]And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
[15]so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.
[16]“For this is how God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
[17]God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.
[18]“There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son.
[19]And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil.
[20]All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed.
[21]But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants.”

Yes sir, 14 and 15 do go along with verse 16. They refer to Numbers chapter 21...........
Numbers 21
6And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. 7Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. 8And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. 9And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

I will interpret it for you. God commanded Moses to make this "serpent" on a pole and in order for each snakebit person to live, that person had to just "Look upon" that serpent on the pole, that's it. Nobody made each man look, he had to actually believe that "looking on it" would keep him, personally, from dying.. Jesus is comparing that same scenario to believing on the "Son of man"(Jesus). YOU have to believe on Him, to have everlasting life. Now for verse 16.......

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

As you correctly said, verses 14 and 15 "define" verse 16. In summary, as each man was responsible to "look upon" the "serpent", "whosoever believeth" from among "the world" is responsible for believing on Jesus. But the "serpent" was there on the "pole" brother, for all the snakebitten ones to look on so each and every one of them had the opportunity. I don't know how to explain it any plainer.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

Actually both are false, or at least, not according to the original Greek.

Unfortunately, I don't read Greek. But the Bible I read says this.......
1 John 1:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Unfortunately, I don't read Greek. But the Bible I read says this.......
1 John 1:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Then all are saved.

 

[MennoSota]

Yes sir, 14 and 15 do go along with verse 16. They refer to Numbers chapter 21...........
Numbers 21
6And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. 7Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. 8And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. 9And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

I will interpret it for you. God commanded Moses to make this "serpent" on a pole and in order for each snakebit person to live, that person had to just "Look upon" that serpent on the pole, that's it. Nobody made each man look, he had to actually believe that "looking on it" would keep him, personally, from dying.. Jesus is comparing that same scenario to believing on the "Son of man"(Jesus). YOU have to believe on Him, to have everlasting life. Now for verse 16.......

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

As you correctly said, verses 14 and 15 "define" verse 16. In summary, as each man was responsible to "look upon" the "serpent", "whosoever believeth" from among "the world" is responsible for believing on Jesus. But the "serpent" was there on the "pole" brother, for all the snakebitten ones to look on so each and every one of them had the opportunity. I don't know how to explain it any plainer.

You ignore the entire point Jesus made about believing. Even with Moses, they had to look. The healing was limited.
You also ignore verses 18-21.
You are an enigma. You teach limited atonement on one hand and unlimited on the other hand. You vascillate from God saving a limited group of people to God saving all people.
Either God's atonement is limited to those who believe or God's atonement is extended to all humanity. There is no middle ground. Any attempt at the middle is a removal of grace from the equation.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

You ignore the entire point Jesus made about believing. Even with Moses, they had to look. The healing was limited.
You also ignore verses 18-21.
You are an enigma. You teach limited atonement on one hand and unlimited on the other hand. You vascillate from God saving a limited group of people to God saving all people.
Either God's atonement is limited to those who believe or God's atonement is extended to all humanity. There is no middle ground. Any attempt at the middle is a removal of grace from the equation.

No sir, The healing was unlimited. God certainly didn't limit it. He had Moses put the serpent on that pole for all who were bitten to look on. Read it bro. Unfortunately, some may not have looked: their fault. Now for verses 18-21..

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

#18 Before I got saved, I was "condemned already, headed for Hell. Because I was not a believer.
#19 I loved darkness rather than light because my deeds were evil
#20 I hated the light, and did not come to the light
#21 However, after I had heard the Gospel and believed on the name of the only begotten Son(verse 18), I became a "doer of truth". Now, I come to the light..

You cannot be a "doer of truth" and "come to the light" until after you "believeth"(verse 16) like the Israelites looking upon the serpent (verses 14 and 15)

 

[agedman]

Is that an honest comment or a biased comment? [emoji41]
Since you're playing the judge, I suspect biased comment. [emoji56]

My bias?

Upon whom was the remarks of learning addressed?

I was merely encouraging to greater study.

Whether the encouragement is met by further investigation is of the prerogative of others.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

Then all are saved.

No, the propitiation was given for the whole world. But only those who believe on Jesus Christ are saved.
Back to the "serpent on the pole". It was put there for all of the snakebitten folks to look on and live, but only those who looked, lived. Only believe, bro. It ain't a "work" to believe. There is no merit on our part. As I said before, it's a totally selfish act on our part to believe on Jesus to escape Hell. God graciously offered His Son on the Cross....... look to Him and live or die and go to Hell.

 

[MennoSota]

No sir, The healing was unlimited. God certainly didn't limit it. He had Moses put the serpent on that pole for all who were bitten to look on. Read it bro. Unfortunately, some may not have looked: their fault. Now for verses 18-21..

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

#18 Before I got saved, I was "condemned already, headed for Hell. Because I was not a believer.
#19 I loved darkness rather than light because my deeds were evil
#20 I hated the light, and did not come to the light
#21 However, after I had heard the Gospel and believed on the name of the only begotten Son(verse 18), I became a "doer of truth". Now, I come to the light..

You cannot be a "doer of truth" and "come to the light" until after you "believeth"(verse 16) like the Israelites looking upon the serpent (verses 14 and 15)

It only worked for those who actually looked, thus it is limited. If it were unlimited then all would have been healed regardless if they looked or not.
Romans 3 tells us that no one looks. Ephesians 2 tells us that God must make us alive.
Ultimately you have a theological dilemma on your hands, which is unresolved by your faulty interpretation.

 

[MennoSota]

No, the propitiation was given for the whole world. But only those who believe on Jesus Christ are saved.
Back to the "serpent on the pole". It was put there for all of the snakebitten folks to look on and live, but only those who looked, lived. Only believe, bro. It ain't a "work" to believe. There is no merit on our part. As I said before, it's a totally selfish act on our part to believe on Jesus to escape Hell. God graciously offered His Son on the Cross....... look to Him and live or die and go to Hell.

I just repudiated your faulty look at the serpent. Your view is wrong, whether you admit it or not.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

No sir, the "serpent on the pole" was offered by God to all who were bitten, thus God's offer was not limited at all. Likewise, God's offer of salvation is offered to the whole world, therefore it is not limited either. When you fail to "look" and believe, you limit only yourself whether it be "die from snakebite", or burn in Hell for all eternity.

 

[JonC]

Then all are saved.

That is a misunderstanding of the passage. Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world (for mankind). The passage doesn't mean all are saved but that Jesus is that propitiation. (The verse speaks of Christ, not of sins forgiven).

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

I just repudiated your faulty look at the serpent. Your view is wrong, whether you admit it or not.

No, your view is way off. Unless the people looked at the serpent, they would not be healed. Likewise, unless the sinner comes to Christ in repentance, they could never be saved!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

It only worked for those who actually looked, thus it is limited. If it were unlimited then all would have been healed regardless if they looked or not.
Romans 3 tells us that no one looks. Ephesians 2 tells us that God must make us alive.
Ultimately you have a theological dilemma on your hands, which is unresolved by your faulty interpretation.

No, your reasoning is faulty. They had to "look", that is, "do something". likewise the sinner has to "repent".

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Then all are saved.

don't be silly. You well know that a sinner must "repent" first and then they are saved. You people have a "block" so that you cannot grasp the basics of the Atonement!

 

[SheepWhisperer]

No, your reasoning is faulty. They had to "look", that is, "do something". likewise the sinner has to "repent".

Actually, it wasn't what they "did", But it was faith, taking God at his word, that kept them from dying. Likewise, "repentance" is also part of faith. But you're right, the responsibility was on them.