John 5:25-29??

[Winman]

Is not faith by definition a supernatural phenomenon?

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Can a man outside of the influence of God produce either?

Faith is not supernatural at all. Every time you put money in the bank you are exercising faith, you are trusting the bank to keep your money for you.

Every time you open a can of soup you are exercising faith, you are trusting that the contents are exactly as the can is labelled and safe to eat.

When a skydiver dives out of a plane he is exercising faith, he is trusting the parachute to get him down safely.

I could go on and on, we exercise faith every single day of our lives. If you allow your children to get on a school bus you are exercising faith.

You guys have turned faith into some mystical, magical force. This is nothing but pure mysticism.

 

[Iconoclast]

Faith is an innate ability all men have.

2 Thessalonians 3:2
And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith

Faith is not supernatural at all

saving faith is supernatural

 

[HeirofSalvation]

nvm..............

 

[OldRegular]

Faith is not supernatural at all. Every time you put money in the bank you are exercising faith, you are trusting the bank to keep your money for you.

Every time you open a can of soup you are exercising faith, you are trusting that the contents are exactly as the can is labelled and safe to eat.

When a skydiver dives out of a plane he is exercising faith, he is trusting the parachute to get him down safely.

I could go on and on, we exercise faith every single day of our lives. If you allow your children to get on a school bus you are exercising faith.

You guys have turned faith into some mystical, magical force. This is nothing but pure mysticism.

All you describe above as faith really have nothing to do with faith, rather they have to do with your understanding [to a greater or lesser degree] that the probability of the desired event will happen. Therefore, such a comparison is meaningless.

Very sad Winman, you really have no true concept of Biblical Faith.

Consider Winman, all those things you quote are based on a probability of a successful event which is never 100%:

Banks fail, some recently

Canned goods can contain botulism

Parachutes sometimes don't open, happened recently

School buses wreck, children are hurt or killed, happened recently.

But the Faith that God gives never fails and never will fail.

 

[Winman]

2 Thessalonians 3:2
And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith
saving faith is supernatural

What an abuse of scripture. Just because some men do not believe the gospel does not mean all men lack the ability to believe.

It also does not prove that saving faith is supernatural. You do not have one verse of scripture to support this. The scriptures say faith comes by "hearing", not supernatural regeneration.

Now, regeneration is supernatural, and is performed by God only, but every man can hear if he chooses to do so.

As Skandelon and others have asked many times, if unregenerate man cannot see and hear spiritual matters, then why did God have to blind them?

Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Jesus didn't say men lack the ability to see or hear spiritual matters, he said they have closed their own eyes lest they see and believe. Jesus said if they did, he would have healed them.

Seeing and hearing is not supernatural, but completely natural. Being healed by God is supernatural.

Calvinism is nonsense.

 

[percho]

2 Thessalonians 3:2
And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith



saving faith is supernatural

You sir are correct.

Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; Hebrews 5:7,8

Prayed to the Father concerning his fear and yet still was obedient unto the suffering of death became the substance of that hoped for and the evidence of that not seen by resurrection from the dead to eternal life.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author (First cause) of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

That was saving faith and it was very,very supernatural.

 

[percho]

What an abuse of scripture. Just because some men do not believe the gospel does not mean all men lack the ability to believe.

It also does not prove that saving faith is supernatural. You do not have one verse of scripture to support this. The scriptures say faith comes by "hearing", not supernatural regeneration.

Now, regeneration is supernatural, and is performed by God only, but every man can hear if he chooses to do so.

As Skandelon and others have asked many times, if unregenerate man cannot see and hear spiritual matters, then why did God have to blind them?

Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Jesus didn't say men lack the ability to see or hear spiritual matters, he said they have closed their own eyes, lest they see and believe. Jesus said if they did, he would have healed them.

Seeing and hearing is not supernatural, but completely natural. Being healed by God is supernatural.

Calvinism is nonsense.

Winman they do not lack ability they are both, deceived and blinded and cannot believe unless called.

 

[webdog]

2 Thessalonians 3:2
And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith



saving faith is supernatural

Merely means not everybody has genuine faith in the truth as those Paul was addressing, nothing about ability or not being able to believe, that is ripping the verse from context and giving it your own meaning

 

[webdog]

Winman they do not lack ability they are both, deceived and blinded and cannot believe unless called.

Using this logic they also cannot reject, which they are ultimately judged on (Joh 3:18)

 

[Winman]

All you describe above as faith really have nothing to do with faith, rather they have to do with your understanding [to a greater or lesser degree] that the probability of the desired event will happen. Therefore, such a comparison is meaningless.

Very sad Winman, you really have no true concept of Biblical Faith.

Consider Winman, all those things you quote are based on a probability of a successful event which is never 100%:

Banks fail, some recently

Canned goods can contain botulism

Parachutes sometimes don't open, happened recently

School buses wreck, children are hurt or killed, happened recently.

But the Faith that God gives never fails and never will fail.

What kind of logic is this? Just because banks fail, this does not prevent people from trusting banks. Do you have a bank account? I do.

Yes, canned goods can be diseased, and even on occasion someone purposely contaminates them to poison folks. I still buy canned goods and have faith in them, do you?

Yes, kids get killed on school buses, yet millions of parents trust school buses to take their children to school every day.

When a school bus crashes, that is not a failure of faith, it is a failure of the school bus or driver.

Your post is pure nonsense. Folks exercise faith every day of their lives. You would not drive your car unless you had faith that the brakes will work when you apply them and stop the car.

When millions of people board airlines each day, they are exercising faith, they are trusting their lives to the safety of the plane.

I don't think you know what faith is, faith is trust. We are all able to trust, it is a choice.

 

[OldRegular]

What kind of logic is this? Just because banks fail, this does not prevent people from trusting banks. Do you have a bank account? I do.

Yes, canned goods can be diseased, and even on occasion someone purposely contaminates them to poison folks. I still buy canned goods and have faith in them, do you?

Yes, kids get killed on school buses, yet millions of parents trust school buses to take their children to school every day.

When a school bus crashes, that is not a failure of faith, it is a failure of the school bus or driver.

Your post is pure nonsense. Folks exercise faith every day of their lives. You would not drive your car unless you had faith that the brakes will work when you apply them and stop the car.

When millions of people board airlines each day, they are exercising faith, they are trusting their lives to the safety of the plane.

I don't think you know what faith is, faith is trust. We are all able to trust, it is a choice.

All the above Winman is what Bill O'Reilly calls bloviating!:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[preacher4truth]

All the above Winman is what Bill O'Reilly calls bloviating!:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

See? Faith is really a carnal action of man. Being saved is just like trusting in a can of tuna as we see in the post to which you refer.

I've not seen so much false teaching in all the Baptist churches I've been in in my life combined.

 

[Winman]

See? Faith is really a carnal action of man. Being saved is just like trusting in a can of tuna as we see in the post to which you refer.

I've not seen so much false teaching in all the Baptist churches I've been in in my life combined.

Faith comes by hearing the word of God. As Spurgeon himself wrote;

Faith cannot be washed into us by immersion, nor sprinkled upon us in christening; it is not to be poured into us from a chalice, nor generated in us by a consecrated piece of bread. There is no magic about it; it comes by hearing the word of God, and by that way only.

And here Spurgeon explains faith just as I have, in trusting persons or things around us through knowledge and experience. Nothing magical whatsoever.

To set the whole matter clearly, we will suppose that you are laboring under a very serious disease, and a physician professes to heal you. You are quite willing to believe in him, but you cannot blindly follow any man, for there are thousands of quacks and impostors. You naturally want to know something about him. Now, in what way would you go to work to get faith in him? How would faith be likely to come to you? It would come by hearing. You hear him speak and you perceive that he understands your case, for he describes exactly all your symptoms, even those which none know but yourself and a skillful physician. You feel already some confidence in him. He next describes to you as much of the method of cure as you can comprehend, and it seems to you to be very reasonable, and withal suitable to the requirements of your case. His proposal commends itself to your best judgment, and you are already a stage nearer submission to his mode of operation. Then you enquire as to the man's character; you find that he is no mere pretender, but an authorized skillful, longestablished practitioner, well known for truthfulness, uprightness, and every good quality. Moreover, suppose in addition to this he charges you nothing whatever, but does everything gratis, having evidently no motive of gain, but being altogether disinterested, moved only by real pity for you, and a kind desire to remove your pain and save your life. Can you any longer refuse to believe and submit? But if, in addition to all this, he allows you his case-book, and bids you read case after case similar to your own in which he has affected perfect cure, and if some of these are your own acquaintances, if they are persons whom you know and esteem, why, sir, you will not insult him by saying, "I wish I could believe you;" but you will be unable to help trusting him, unless you are unwilling to be cured. Faith, in such a case, does not depend upon the will at all; you are convinced by hearing, and you become a believer. In the same way faith comes by hearing.

You see here that Spurgeon describes saving faith in the same manner as we would trust a doctor. We would learn of him and his reputation. We may consult with former patients to learn their opinions on the doctor. We might examine his medical degrees, or learn how long he has been practicing medicine. All of these will convince us that the doctor can be trusted to operate on us and heal us.

Saving faith is the same, we learn of Jesus through the scriptures, faith comes by hearing the word of God. We learn that Jesus is loving and compassionate, he will not cast us out if we come to him. He was sinless and so could die for our sins. He rose from the dead and is alive again, so we know he can hear our prayers when we call to him.

You, much like a Roman Catholic, have turned faith into a mystical, magical thing.

You scorn me, but you do not know the truth.

 

[OldRegular]

Am I wrong or did I read that faith, even faith that saves, is inherent in man. Some men choose to use it; you know, eating soup, putting money in the bank flying, riding a school bus, believing the Gospel. Others choose not to use it. Wonder how long they make it without eating?

 

[asterisktom]

Like shooting fish in a barrel

Once again we have Winman vs. Winman. First you quote and emphasize this from Spurgeon:

"There is no magic about it; it [faith] comes by hearing the word of God, and by that way only."

Earlier you wrote:
"Faith is an ability all men are born with."
"Even animals have faith"

You emphasize in Spurgeon something that you strongly disagree with here. Do you not see what Spurgeon said - in the very part you emphasized? Faith comes only by the Word of God.

Do all hear the Word of God? No. Not according to Romans. Yet all have faith (acc. to you). Do animals hear the Word of God? Yet they seem to have faith too.

This is an illustration of not calling a corner "a corner" when you are backed up into it.

 

[Winman]

Once again we have Winman vs. Winman. First you quote and emphasize this from Spurgeon:

"There is no magic about it; it [faith] comes by hearing the word of God, and by that way only."

Earlier you wrote:
"Faith is an ability all men are born with."
"Even animals have faith"

You emphasize in Spurgeon something that you strongly disagree with here. Do you not see what Spurgeon said - in the very part you emphasized? Faith comes only by the Word of God.

Do all hear the Word of God? No. Not according to Romans. Yet all have faith (acc. to you). Do animals hear the Word of God? Yet they seem to have faith too.

This is an illustration of not calling a corner "a corner" when you are backed up into it.

You purposely misrepresent me. You understand exactly what I am saying. I said faith is an ABILITY. We have the ability to either believe what we have heard, or disbelieve.

Faith is not something you can hold in your hand, or place in a bucket. It is based on reasoning and understanding. A person can only exercise faith when a choice is made available. Is this airplane safe to get on or not? Should I loan my friend $5000 dollars? Can he be trusted to pay it back in one month as he promised?

You know precisely what I was saying, but you purposely try to misrepresent me.

Even a small child has faith, it is a recognized fact that children at about the age of 13-16 months are afraid of strangers, and only trust their parents or persons well known to them. So, all people are born with this ability when the situation presents itself.

This from a baby website.

What it is: Young toddlers (around 16 months) often go through a phase known as "stranger suspicion" in child development circles. They become extra wary of people outside their immediate family, including once-accepted relatives and friends.

Why it happens: Unlike "separation anxiety," which you probably dealt with many months ago, "stranger suspicion" is — believe it or not — based on rational thinking. That's because toddlers are becoming increasingly knowledgeable about the world and its potential dangers. ("Hey, I don't know you — you could hurt me!") Plus, young children, who have little control in their lives as it is, may really not dig dealing with people they barely know who pinch their cheeks, hug without asking, and kiss them like crazy. Is it any wonder they want to hide?

Fear is mistrust. Even young infants trust those familiar to them like their parents and siblings, but fear strangers who they do not yet know.

You guys are nothing but a bunch of mystics.

 

[Winman]

Am I wrong or did I read that faith, even faith that saves, is inherent in man. Some men choose to use it; you know, eating soup, putting money in the bank flying, riding a school bus, believing the Gospel. Others choose not to use it. Wonder how long they make it without eating?

And you cannot comprehend what I was saying. When you go to the grocery store and pick up a can of Campbell's soup, how do you know what is inside? You don't. But you trust the label on the can and believe it is a can of Campbell's Chicken Noodle Soup and is safe to eat. That is faith.

What I said has nothing to do with needing to eat, I was talking about trusting the label on the can. For all you know, that might not be chicken in the soup, but a cut up mouse.

Talking to you guys is like talking to a stubborn 13 year old.

People exercise faith every day. Every time you eat a can of Campbell's Chicken Noodle Soup you are trusting that is really chicken in the soup.

And Spurgeon agreed with me, he described saving faith just as you would trust a doctor to treat you for an illness or operate on you. Nothing magical whatsoever.

God does not require what we cannot do, he only requires that we believe. This is not supernatural whatsoever. Once we believe, God gives us the power to become the sons of God. We are born again. This regeneration IS supernatural and only God can perform this.

 

[asterisktom]

You purposely misrepresent me. You understand exactly what I am saying. I said faith is an ABILITY. We have the ability to either believe what we have heard, or disbelieve.

Faith is not something you can hold in your hand, or place in a bucket. It is based on reasoning and understanding. A person can only exercise faith when a choice is made available. Is this airplane safe to get on or not? Should I loan my friend $5000 dollars? Can he be trusted to pay it back in one month as he promised?

You know precisely what I was saying, but you purposely try to misrepresent me.

How can I misrepresent you when I quote you verbatim?

You said faith is an ability.
I said that you said "faith is an ability".
Where is the misrepresentation???

Speaking of misrepresenting, who is taking about faith being held in the hand?

OK. I am done here.

I have to go nail some Jello to the wall.

 

[Winman]

How can I misrepresent you when I quote you verbatim?

You said faith is an ability.
I said that you said "faith is an ability".
Where is the misrepresentation???

Speaking of misrepresenting, who is taking about faith being held in the hand?

OK. I am done here.

I have to go nail some Jello on the wall.

I'll miss you like a toothache.

 

[convicted1]

Cmon Willis......if God is the giver of the gift.....and he makes a person willing.....I think he knows how to give the gift effectually:thumbs:

If He makes someone take it, then it's not a gift.