JOHN MACARTHUR AND ASSURANCE

[HankD]

Okay, fine. None of the verses you provided highlighted or even mentioned this distinction. If you really believe this distinction exists, please provide the biblical evidence.

i have but apparently to no avail on your part.
i no longer prolong these discussions of disagreement but simply ask the readers to review the debate and decide on their own.

read MacArthur's view then the apostolic NT passages in post #99.

e.g.
1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.,

 

[Steven_15]

By no means is my fruit perfect. And I have lacked assurance at times when I fall into seasons of sin. I know the true Christian perseveres.

1John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.​

When I'm going though sin and unrepentant and unconfessing, passages like this come to mind. As does the passage below.

1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.​

Assurance can waiver because it depends on me. Security never does, as it depends on God.

Heb. 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,​

Notice the tenses in this sentence. We have already become, if we hold until the end. True Christians persevere.

I know the true Christian perseveres.

Regardless of how much you persevere, is your fruit going to be perfect?

When I'm going though sin and unrepentant and unconfessing, passages like this come to mind

Does forgiveness come from grace or your admission/confession of sin?

Assurance can waiver because it depends on me. Security never does, as it depends on God.

Is security meaningful in your experience without assurance?

 

[Yeshua1]

MacArthur believes this and so do I. With out the shedding of blood (Christ's death on the cross), there is no remission of sins.

What we disagree with is that this is a reference to blood apart from death. That there is something in the blood that's magical. It's about Christ's death. I agree with Mac on this. I think you're dead wrong.

If Jesus was just killed off with out shedding his blood, would that atone for our sins?

 

[Yeshua1]

Regardless of how much you persevere, is your fruit going to be perfect?



Does forgiveness come from grace or your admission/confession of sin?



Is security meaningful in your experience without assurance?

we never can lose relationship with the Father, as death of Jesus paid for entire sin debt owed, bujt can mess with fellowship!

 

[Yeshua1]

Okay, fine. None of the verses you provided highlighted or even mentioned this distinction. If you really believe this distinction exists, please provide the biblical evidence.

Why do the Apostles reference and highlight his shed blood so much then?

 

[Yeshua1]

By no means is my fruit perfect. And I have lacked assurance at times when I fall into seasons of sin. I know the true Christian perseveres.

1John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.​

When I'm going though sin and unrepentant and unconfessing, passages like this come to mind. As does the passage below.

1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.​

Assurance can waiver because it depends on me. Security never does, as it depends on God.

Heb. 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,​

Notice the tenses in this sentence. We have already become, if we hold until the end. True Christians persevere.

Is that due to our efforts, or due to the Holy Spirit and intercession of Jesus as our High priest?

 

[Steven_15]

we never can lose relationship with the Father, as death of Jesus paid for entire sin debt owed, bujt can mess with fellowship!

It is lack of faith not lack of works which messes relationship.

 

[Yeshua1]

It is lack of faith not lack of works which messes relationship.

Relationship anchored fully into Cross and Christ, that is never messed with!

 

[Marooncat79]

So what about a christian couple in a church, in a leadership position, in a live-in relationship? What should be the response of the church committee towards them?

1. They should immediately removed from leadership and counseled regarding church discipline
2. Counseled towards repentance
3. If they fail to repent or get married, church discipline should happen
4. They should be restored to membership only when they openly repent before the church

 

[Steven_15]

Relationship anchored fully into Cross and Christ, that is never messed with!

There is no relationship possible with God except through faith.

 

[Steven_15]

1. They should immediately removed from leadership and counseled regarding church discipline
2. Counseled towards repentance
3. If they fail to repent or get married, church discipline should happen
4. They should be restored to membership only when they openly repent before the church

To do so, shouldn't the church committee be sinless before God?

 

[Steven_15]

Is that due to our efforts, or due to the Holy Spirit and intercession of Jesus as our High priest?

Lordship salvation teaches christians to trust in the plans/efforts of the self rather than believe in grace which rules a christian (Romans 5:21).

 

[Wesley Briggman]

To do so, shouldn't the church committee be sinless before God?

Where in the Bible does it state that any person is sinless?

[Rom 3:23 ESV] 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

[Mat 18:15-17 ESV] 15 "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

[1Co 5:1-5 ESV] 1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife. 2 And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you. 3 For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. 4 When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

 

[rsr]

Even in his old age, John MacArthur doubted his salvation. He said if he ended up going to Hell, he’d be a weeper instead of a gnasher.

I believe that's R.C. Sproul, not MacArthur (who is still alive).

"I sure don’t want to end up in hell. But one thing I know for sure is that if I do, if I have deceived myself all these years, and if I’m one who says, 'Well, Lord, Lord, didn’t I do this and didn’t I do that?' and He looks at me and says, 'Please leave, I don’t know you,' and He sends me to hell, one thing I can promise you is that I’ll be a weeper, not a gnasher. Because if I know anything about theology, I know that if He sent me to hell tonight, I could make no just complaint against Him."

 

[Steven_15]

Where in the Bible does it state that any person is sinless?

[Rom 3:23 ESV] 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

[Mat 18:15-17 ESV] 15 "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

[1Co 5:1-5 ESV] 1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife. 2 And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you. 3 For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. 4 When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

These passages are never against grace. They never say assurance is by works. They never deny Romans 4:7,8.

 

[Steven_15]

Where in the Bible does it state that any person is sinless?

[Rom 3:23 ESV] 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

[Mat 18:15-17 ESV] 15 "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

[1Co 5:1-5 ESV] 1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife. 2 And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you. 3 For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. 4 When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

If the church committee members trust in the works of the moral law in order to be sanctified, they need to fulfill the law perfectly according to Mathew 5:48. If not, they will heap hell fire upon themselves for condemning others for non-fulfilment of the moral law.

 

[Marooncat79]

To do so, shouldn't the church committee be sinless before God?

No. They are living in blatant sin and show a lack of true conversion. This is open hostilitybto Gods Word not a slip of the tongue or a weak moment

 

[Marooncat79]

Lordship salvation teaches christians to trust in the plans/efforts of the self rather than believe in grace which rules a christian (Romans 5:21).

No it does not

 

[HankD]

No it does not

yes it does

 

[Yeshua1]

There is no relationship possible with God except through faith.

Which God supplies to His very own!