John the Baptist

[rc]

Those who respond become the Christians, and by becoming Christian, become the elect.

What does elect mean? Does the election determine who will be President or do the two canidates decide who will elect them?... silly.

We don't BECOME elect... we ARE elect. BEFORE the foundations of the earth. Same with destination. It is the ENDS of a journey. Our ENDS where CHOSEN before time. This is by definition PREDESTINATION. You where, by grace, elected for predestination for the purpose of HIS WILL for His glory.

 

[dianetavegia]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dianetavegia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Can you tell us anywhere in Scripture where someone becomes elect this way?

Romans 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. </font>[/QUOTE]Which part of this verse talks about election? For all my reading, I don't see it in there. And in all my study, I have never seen this verse used in support of anything about election, much less showing that people become elect by becoming Christians. </font>[/QUOTE]Sorry to quote the whole thing but wanted to be clear.

By obedience we become the elect. "Obedience leading to righteousness. But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart."

people become elect by becoming Christians.

Here, I'd point to 'He foreknew.'

 

[Pastor Larry]

By obedience we become the elect. "Obedience leading to righteousness. But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart."

But where does Scripture say this? Again, this verse you cite says nothing about election.

Here, I'd point to 'He foreknew.'

But "foreknow" and "elect" are different things. especially for your side. That doesn't help your case.

Again, we need to focus on what Scripture actually says and deal with that, before we start drawing conclusions.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Those who Believe is the EVIDENCE that they have been drawn there is no contention from anybody about that. The contention is what you skipped over in verses 37 and 39 ALL that the father GIVES me WILL come to me ..... that I should lose NOTHING of ALL that he has GIVEN me, but raise it up on the last day.

"All that the father gives me."

What that does not say, is that those whom the Father gives to the Son were "given from before the foundation of the world". It does not say that those whom the Father gives are Elect.

It may mean that when a certain count of souls is reached that the Father stops giving.

Said another way, the Father gives all who believe to the Son up to a point in human time where God removes His grace from His creation, and begins Judgment.

"from the foundation of the world" does not mean that all who are "elect" were determined before the world was made, it could just as clearly mean that all who believe in God since the beginning of the world to the present!

So, for you literalnics who take every penstroke of the bible at its most literal possible interpretation, I can only say this, YOU are missing the glorious message of God regarding HIS salvation of man.

 

[rc]

1 Timothy 4:6 being TRAINED IN THE WORDS of the faith and of the good doctrine that you have followed.

Get some training Wes... Paul shows that Timothy was TRAINED in the WORDS... He knew His Greek and grammatical rules VERY WELL. And so did the other writers... The problems is others who don't have training NOW what to spout their liberal teachings like they think they KNOW something... sad...

1 Timothy 1:7 7 desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions.

You missing out on the glorious message, because you are not taking it truthfully.

 

[dianetavegia]

Yep, Timothy was taught about God by his grandmother and mother.

2 Timothy 1:2 To Timothy, a beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. 3 I thank God, whom I serve with a pure conscience, as my forefathers did, as without ceasing I remember you in my prayers night and day, 4 greatly desiring to see you, being mindful of your tears, that I may be filled with joy, 5 when I call to remembrance the genuine faith that is in you, which dwelt first in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice, and I am persuaded is in you also.

 

[dianetavegia]

The problems(sic) is others who don't have training NOW what(sic) to spout their liberal teachings like they think they KNOW something... sad...

Or those, when they don't have any BIBLICAL / SCRIPTURAL ANSWERS, who say .... 'It's a mystery.....'

 

[rc]

Diane,
It doesn't say ANYTHING about Timothy's mom or grandma TEACHING him at all.

Secondly, it doesn't matter. He was taught in the WORDS of the faith.. point still remains that knowing the WORDS of the faith where paramount. You can not ADD to scripture Diane. Don't you see that you ADDED to scripture to make it say what you wanted it to say instead of just letting the scripture say what it means?

It said that Tim had a genuine faith that his mom and grandma had first.... that is ALL that is says. You can not infer anything else out of that unless you want to be extra biblical. We don't even know if he was AROUND his family let alone taught by them.

So... what about exegeting John 6.44 ?

 

[dianetavegia]

Other scripture tells us that Timothy's father refused his cirucmcision so was an unbeliever. His early learning certainly was from mother and grandmother.

2 Timothy 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.


Acts 16:1 Then he came to Derbe and Lystra. And behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a certain Jewish woman who believed, but his father was Greek.

 

[BrotherJoe]

The issue of John the Baptist being, "filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb" (Luke 1:15) creates a great dillema for those who believe in "gospel regeneration" (i.e. the false dogma of religion that teaches we become born again and recieve the Holy Spirit" by believing the gospel.)

My question to "gospel regenerationists" is similar to the topic starters, however I wish to rephrase it. In view of the fact that John the Baptist became "born of the spirit" prior to hearing the word of God (Luke 1:15), and in light of the fact that in John 3:8 Jesus stipulated that all the elect recieve the spirit in the same manner when he stated, "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. ", then how can gospel regeneration be true, since we would have John the Baptist being "born of the Spirit" through one means (i.e. through the sovereign grace of God) and those who hear and believe the gospel through another means (i.e. through hearing and believing the gospel)?

In reality, is not sovereign grace the only plausible explanation to scripturally justify how anyone who is mentally handicap or a baby that dies in infancy becomes "born of the Spirit"? How does the " gospel regeneration" doctrine provide hope to these individuals without inventing the non Biblical "age of accountability" which creates two different means by which people could access heaven?

By his grace alone,

Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoe]

Diane said: 2 Timothy 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.


Brother Joe: Sister Diane, 2 Timothy 3:15 has to be understood in the light of what Paul already said to Timothy about his eternal salvation two chapters earlier in 2 Timothy 1:9-10 where he declares to Timothy, "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel "

The verse states three very important concepts about Timothy's eternal salvation. Firstly, that God had already saved Timothy through Christ's sacrifice (remember he is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the World), that the grace was given to Timothy before the world began, and most importantly for the purpose of this conversation that the gospel merely brings life and immortality to light,it does not produce light and immortality. Light coming into a dark only exposes what is already there, it does not create anything. Light coming into a dark only exposes what is already there, it does not create anything. Likewise, Christ's shed sacrifice alone saved Timothy eternally and this fact was brought to light through the gospel.

God bless you,

Brother Joe

 

[Wes Outwest]

The issue of John the Baptist being, "filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb" (Luke 1:15) creates a great dillema for those who believe in "gospel regeneration" (i.e. the false dogma of religion that teaches we become born again and recieve the Holy Spirit" by believing the gospel.)

It is only a dilemma for those who accept "general election" as gospel!

John the baptist was an elect of God. He was prophesied, and he was the fulfillment of prophesy. He was elected to be a key player in God's plan of Salvation for the general populous of the world.

It is false doctrine that claims general election among the peoples of the world.

The scripture does not say that John became "born of the spirit" it says that he was filled with the spirit in the womb.

John 3:8 The wind blows where it pleases; you can hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.

Care to try again on the meaning of this verse? It does not say what you tried to make it say. The first sentence tells us how the wind blows yet we cannot see from whense it comes or where it goes. The second verse says, that everyone who is born of the spirit is like that wind. It has nothing to do with how one becomes filled with the spirit! Because John the baptist is "different" as being an Elect of God for the purpose of being the forerunner of the Christ, "preparing the way", John, was a man with a human mother and father as was Judas. and like Judas, both were elected to their roles by God. You and I on the other hand are not elect of God for the purpose of our own salvation, which God gives freely to those who believe in His only begotten son. Why would God elect humans to that which he so freely gives? That simply does not compute!

God's Grace? Whether sovereign or not is upon all mankind. If it is grace that saves, then all mankind are saved. That, likewise does not compute!

 

[BrotherJoe]

Brother Wes: The scripture does not say that John became "born of the spirit" it says that he was filled with the spirit in the womb.


BRother Joe: One who is "filled with the spirit" must obviously have the spirit already and thus they were at some point "born of the spirit" as Jesus mentions in John 3:8. Brother Wes,you dont believe people who are "filled with the spirit" can be at the same time unsaved do you? That would be illogical.

Remember Jesus said, "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."(John 3:6), therefore only people who are already born again can be "filled with the spirit" as was the case with John the Baptist. (Luke 1:15)


God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoe]

quote:
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John 3:8 The wind blows where it pleases; you can hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.
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BROTHER WES: Care to try again on the meaning of this verse? It does not say what you tried to make it say. The first sentence tells us how the wind blows yet we cannot see from whense it comes or where it goes. The second verse says, that everyone who is born of the spirit is like that wind. It has nothing to do with how one becomes filled with the spirit!Because John the baptist is "different" as being an Elect of God for the purpose of being the forerunner of the Christ, "preparing the way",You and I on the other hand are not elect of God for the purpose of our own salvation, which God gives freely to those who believe in His only begotten son.

BROTHER JOE: Brother Wes I disagree, in context, it is clear that the verse (John 3:8) must talking about how one receives the Holy Spirit.This must be because in the prior verse Jesus says," Ye must be born again" (John 3:7B) and the original question Jesus was answering was, " How can a man be born when he is old?" (John 3:4A) Now my point is, since John 3:8 states that the process of becoming born again is the same for every man in that Jesus said, "So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:8B), and John the Bapist as I have proven was already born again prior to being born (this must be so because no one can be "filled with the Holy Spirit" without first being born again", then how can anyone else become born again differently other than the sovereign way John was without creating a contradiction with John 3:8 which states the method is the same for," everyone everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:8B) ?

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[Wes Outwest]

Perhaps by posting John 3:1-21 in this fashion you can better follow God the son's thoughts in his conversation with Nicodemus

There was one of the Pharisees called Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews, who came to Jesus by night and said, `Rabbi, we know that you have come from God as a teacher; for no one could perform the signs that you do unless God were with him.'

Jesus answered: In all truth I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.

Nicodemus said, `How can anyone who is already old be born? Is it possible to go back into the womb again and be born?'

Jesus replied: In all truth I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born through water and the Spirit; what is born of human nature is human; what is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be surprised when I say: You must be born from above. The wind blows where it pleases; you can hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.

'How is that possible?' asked Nicodemus.

Jesus replied, `You are the Teacher of Israel, and you do not know these things! `In all truth I tell you, we speak only about what we know and witness only to what we have seen and yet you people reject our evidence. If you do not believe me when I speak to you about earthly things, how will you believe me when I speak to you about heavenly things? No one has gone up to heaven except the one who came down from heaven, the Son of man; as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so must the Son of man be lifted up so that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him. For this is how God loved the world: he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. For God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but so that through him the world might be saved. No one who believes in him will be judged; but whoever does not believe is judged already, because that person does not believe in the Name of God's only Son. And the judgment is this: though the light has come into the world people have preferred darkness to the light because their deeds were evil. And indeed, everybody who does wrong hates the light and avoids it, to prevent his actions from being shown up; but whoever does the truth comes out into the light, so that what he is doing may plainly appear as done in God.'

Pay particular attention to the complete thought of how Jesus responds Nicodemus' question "how can anyone who is already old be born?

 

[rc]

You should pay attention Wes, that it is a Jew talking to a Jew also.

Why did Jesus say "as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so must the Son of man be lifted up "

When did God tell Moses to do this? Did everybody have the CHANCE to "look upon the serpant? Or did many die BEFORE God CHOOSE to give GRACE?

what is born of HUMAN NATURE is human; what is born of the Spirit is spirit

This means humans by nature CAN ONLY give birth to what is humanly natural. It has to be the SPIRIT that gives spiritual birth... that's the point! Man can not BY HIS NATURE do what the spirit CAN only do, and it does so without our knowlege or control like the wind.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by rc:
You should pay attention Wes, that it is a Jew talking to a Jew also.

Why did Jesus say "as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so must the Son of man be lifted up "

When did God tell Moses to do this? Did everybody have the CHANCE to "look upon the serpant? Or did many die BEFORE God CHOOSE to give GRACE?

what is born of HUMAN NATURE is human; what is born of the Spirit is spirit

This means humans by nature CAN ONLY give birth to what is humanly natural. It has to be the SPIRIT that gives spiritual birth... that's the point! Man can not BY HIS NATURE do what the spirit CAN only do, and it does so without our knowlege or control like the wind.

You're full of it! Man has to know else man would never submit his own spirit to the Spirit of God!

 

[Bob Krajcik]

David, it seems, was regenerate while still upon his mother’s breast (Ps 22:9). John Baptist showed evidence of having been born again while still in his mothers womb (Luke 1:41; Gal 5:22). Of Jeremiah, it is said before he came out of the womb he was sanctified (Jer 1:5; 1Cor 1:30; 6:11; Rom 15:16). Then there is the infant son of David (2Sam 12:23). David seems to have had witness that the infant was saved. While there is some reason for questioning if these things are so or not, there is nevertheless reason for accepting these things as being so. God need not make these things open and clear now, but there is some reason for thinking they are so, unless you are inclined to be of the mind man must do the right things to gain salvation. Deal with the Scriptures while considering these things.

By grace,
Bob Krajcik
Mansfield, Ohio

 

[here now]

Wes says:

You're full of it! Man has to know else man would never submit his own spirit to the Spirit of God!

Here Now asks:

Did any person that Jesus resurrected ask to be brought back to life?

Did any of them say NO I don't want to live?

So it is with us when we are born of the Spirit:
1)We don't ask for it.
2)We don't say NO.

 

[rc]

Did Lazarus ask to be brought back to life?
Why did Jesus call him by NAME?